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Is billionaire VC Peter Thiel trying to break up Google?

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Re: Is billionaire VC Peter Thiel trying to break up Google?

#141

Post by boomlinde »

alien_at_work wrote: post #136
bufferoverflow wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not. Freedom of speech doesn't cover slander/libel. Freedom of speech means government can't put you in a cage for your expressed ideas (with few exceptions, like yelling fire in a theater).

> like yelling fire in a theater I hate that this example is always used. Yelling fire in a theator for a laugh isn't "expressing ideas". It's a kind of social fraud: in some sense we depend on each other to make society work and someone shouting that our lives are in danger when they are not is violating this trust. Not by expressing some philosophical ideal but by exclaiming something they know to be false.

Yelling fire in a theater expresses the idea that there is a fire in the theater, whether it's true or not. It's a good example because it's a pretty bad and at best worthless thing to express, and because it has been used before (Schenck v. United States) when free speech has been abridged where the speech in question wasn't categorically not covered, just dangerous and unmerited enough to be considered illegal anyway. It is considered a well motivated abridgment.

There's nothing about the constitutional idea of free speech that says it has to be of philosophical value or true.

Re: Is billionaire VC Peter Thiel trying to break up Google?

#142

Post by [deleted] »

icebraining wrote: post #111
indubitable wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because an individual opines on something doesn't somehow turn it into a sudden irrefutable fact. And that wiki article is completely devoid of examples aside from giving a number of other views on the topic - in which literally every single one disagrees with him. It's no different than arguing that the key to solving violence is violence. Wrapping a layer of specious logic around it makes it no more reasonable…

It's interesting too in that I think everybody can see that violence inherently breeds violence On the contrary, we created an official group tasked with dealing out violence (the police) because it's generally accepted (whether it's true or not) that some violence must be met with violence.

[deleted]

Re: Is billionaire VC Peter Thiel trying to break up Google?

#143

Post by indubitable »

icebraining wrote: post #111
indubitable wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because an individual opines on something doesn't somehow turn it into a sudden irrefutable fact. And that wiki article is completely devoid of examples aside from giving a number of other views on the topic - in which literally every single one disagrees with him. It's no different than arguing that the key to solving violence is violence. Wrapping a layer of specious logic around it makes it no more reasonable…

It's interesting too in that I think everybody can see that violence inherently breeds violence On the contrary, we created an official group tasked with dealing out violence (the police) because it's generally accepted (whether it's true or not) that some violence must be met with violence.

The police obviously are not tasked out with dealing violence. They stop violence and are certainly capable of defending themselves when necessary. In the US this line between defense and aggression is becoming blurred, but that's more of a deterioration of a society than the actual role of police.

And that blurring supports the point. As police face more regular violence, they themselves tend to become more violent, leading to even more violence against them, and vice versa. In countries where the police face no violence, they often are not even armed. Take for instance Iceland which may have an even greater percent of their population armed than the US (our per capita ownership rate is so high because many gun owners own many guns) - yet their police are unarmed. 2013 was a sad year for Iceland. It was the first year that their police fired a gun at a civilian, ever [1].

It always leads to sort of 'which came first the chicken or the egg' type question, but the point is absolutely clear that intolerance breeds intolerance in much the same way that violence breeds violence. And it's quite sad watching people fall into this. People don't seem to understand that nearly all the evil in this world is and has been done by people who felt they were the 'good guys.' "No no, it's different this time. We really are the good guys! History will prove us right!" Said everybody, ever.

[1] - https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2013/1203/Lots-of-gun...

Re: Is billionaire VC Peter Thiel trying to break up Google?

#144

Post by berberous »

speedplane wrote: post #96
whatyoucantsay wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the whole Gawker vs. Hulk Hogan trial thing, which was one of the biggest attacks on freedom of the press in recent history What a disingenuous load of nonsense. If you film people having sex with their permission, then you are a pornographer and subject to certain restrictions as to how you may publish your works. If you film people having sex WITHOUT their permission or knowledge and post the videos online then yo…

If Thiel sued over Gawker's outing of Thiel being gay, that would be okay. If Hogan sued and won on his own, that would also be okay. What's not okay is using one's own immense wealth to fund litigation against a media outlet you do not like over issues unrelated to the reason you dislike them. There's no question this tips the balance of power.

Regarding "tips the balance of power", Gawker's whole M.O. was to publish appaling shit when they knew their lawyers were better funded than their victims.

Re: Is billionaire VC Peter Thiel trying to break up Google?

#145

Post by bbatha »

bufferoverflow wrote: post #15
oculusthrift wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

held to account != able to be sued legally. i agree that getting protested is one thug but getting sued and shut down is a legal issue which is contrary to free speech

No, it's not. Freedom of speech doesn't cover slander/libel. Freedom of speech means government can't put you in a cage for your expressed ideas (with few exceptions, like yelling fire in a theater).

> yelling fire in a theater

This is not the current standard. You can yell fire in a crowded theater all you want (probably). We no longer use the "clear and present danger" standard, instead Brandenburg v. Ohio changed it to be "imminent lawless action"[1].

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio#the-decisi...

Re: Is billionaire VC Peter Thiel trying to break up Google?

#146

Post by curtisblaine »

Vinnl wrote: post #133
curtisblaine wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that hiring diverse, equally-represented employees is actually a risk for my company in terms of employee throughput and capabilities? It starts to sound as a disadvantage...

I'm saying that if we want a more diverse workforce, we need to address more than just hiring practices. But yes, companies might need external incentives at the moment to prevent it from being a disadvantage.

So you're saying that the perceived "competitive advantage of diversity" is only an empty slogan, and diversity is actually a disadvantage in the real world?

Re: Is billionaire VC Peter Thiel trying to break up Google?

#147

Post by thrill »

jondubois wrote: post #56
burnte wrote: post #6

I think we've seen Thiel do this before, indirectly fund opposition to organizations he doesn't like when he can't attack them directly. He's also funded lots of politicians that work quite hard to restrict rights at every level of government, including, frankly, that are rather adamantly against equal rights for gay people. He's a great representation that some people will align themselves with anyone to further the…

Yes it's ironic that he wants to break up Google for being a monopoly but he has no problem with Facebook being a monopoly. I'm pretty sure that Facebook's monopoly is at least as dangerous as Google's, if not more dangerous.

Often you don't have to destroy something big to get it to change behavior - some good stings in crucial spots can be effective.

Re: Is billionaire VC Peter Thiel trying to break up Google?

#148

Post by sjg007 »

yannis7 wrote: post #104
dx034 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is a conglomerate like many before. At some point people will realise that it's better to split the company up and allow individual parts to focus more. Google's individual businesses often have very little overlap. But that's not only for Google. Amazon, for example, has no reason to keep AWS in the same company as ecommerce (except to subsidise businesses). Quite the opposite, keeping them apart would bring…

On your point, might be worth mentioning that Facebook is starting to lose its focus with acquisitions such as Oculus Rift - which Zuck considers a major strategic move

The next social network might be the virtual one.

Re: Is billionaire VC Peter Thiel trying to break up Google?

#149

Post by Chris2048 »

VeejayRampay wrote: post #55
factsaresacred wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have read that. He concedes the study is valid and the problems real and difficult. Then he adds his own opinion that nevertheless it's worth it. > In the short term, he writes, there are clearly challenges, but over the long haul, he argues that diversity has a range of benefits for a society, and that the fragmentation and distrust can be overcome. It’s not an easy process, but in the end it’s “well worth the eff…

> I mean, this stuff is intuitive for anybody with a sense of history Intuitive has nothing to do with fact, plenty of factors might heavily influence what one considers "intuitive". For a lot of people the necessity of the death penalty is "intuitive", yet for many societies, it's an absolute no-brainer that such practices are medieval. So again, unless there is a corpus of studies, all pointing in the same directio…

This is an unfalsifiable position to take. So long as your opinion isn't common, you can claim this as proof that diverse populations lack the power to promote it.

Re: Is billionaire VC Peter Thiel trying to break up Google?

#150

Post by CuriouslyC »

jondubois wrote: post #56
burnte wrote: post #6

I think we've seen Thiel do this before, indirectly fund opposition to organizations he doesn't like when he can't attack them directly. He's also funded lots of politicians that work quite hard to restrict rights at every level of government, including, frankly, that are rather adamantly against equal rights for gay people. He's a great representation that some people will align themselves with anyone to further the…

Yes it's ironic that he wants to break up Google for being a monopoly but he has no problem with Facebook being a monopoly. I'm pretty sure that Facebook's monopoly is at least as dangerous as Google's, if not more dangerous.

I'm not nearly as worried about Facebook as Google. I don't really use Facebook, and it isn't that hard of a service to drop. On the other hand, switching to non-Google search/maps/email is painful, particularly given the benefits of integration these services provide.
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