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As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

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Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#141
post #41

As a trans woman in tech, who was also raised in a very gender normative environment (i.e. I was expected to conform to gender norms for boys as a child), I certainly see her point. I got into technology a child mostly because that what I could do within the environment's "boy" social role. Fast forward a couple of decades, and relative to pretty much all cis women of the same age, I have many more years of experienc…

Holy stereotypes, batman.

> Women can be great engineers, we just rarely care to become them

How do you presume to know what the majority of women care to be? I'm a woman, and I want to be a great engineer. I was extremely fortunate to grow up in an environment with a female technical role model (my mom), so I easily saw myself going this way, despite the societal emphasis on empathetic skills the rest of the world expected from me. Others were not so lucky.

It's hard to care to be something that you were never properly exposed to. I got that chance, you got that chance, but many women did not.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#142
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one said you have to be obsessive, but it helps.

No, it doesn't. It makes you one-dimensional and particularly poor at building products for others unlike yourself. The sooner the tech industry realizes that this sort of person is not an asset and that having too many of them around just drives others away, the better off it'll be.

>It makes you one-dimensional and particularly poor at building products for others unlike yourself.

So they're possibly better at writing backend code.

Let's make an effort to keep them employed by finding positions they can succeed in instead of purging people at the first sign of personality traits we don't like (that they may not have been able to control in the first place).

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it doesn't. It makes you one-dimensional and particularly poor at building products for others unlike yourself. The sooner the tech industry realizes that this sort of person is not an asset and that having too many of them around just drives others away, the better off it'll be.

And there's nothing to stop them starting their own companies or being hired by companies that don't subscribe to the prevailing PC orthodoxy. And with their deep obsessiveness they may well write better software. Or are you saying they should not be allowed to? That's not how things work.

Of course I'm not saying 'they should not be allowed to'. I'm not quite sure how you'd get that.

I'm saying that their deep obsessiveness, and issues relating to being deeply obsessed, makes their organization as a whole write worse software. They sometimes write good code on their own, especially if they don't have to work with others, but usually they're a net negative.

Honestly, I don't know how this isn't obvious to anyone who's ever worked on a team.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#144
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure being unpopular or not being the object of attention for girls has anything to do with this. Sure it does. I know if I was popular in school I wouldn't have spent so many Friday nights locked away programming and subsequently honing my craft.

I managed both.

We believe you wink.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#145
post #38

Why are all posts regarding the google memo getting flagged? This kind of censorship is getting annoying.

This isn't censorship, this is HN readers saying they're not so interested in the memo that they need to have another post about it every hour.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#146
post #38

Why are all posts regarding the google memo getting flagged? This kind of censorship is getting annoying.

This isn't censorship, this is HN readers saying they're not so interested in the memo that they need to have another post about it every hour.

There is a difference between flagging and not upvoting.

If it is upvoted enough to reach first page then it means there are HN readers who are interested.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#147
post #41

As a trans woman in tech, who was also raised in a very gender normative environment (i.e. I was expected to conform to gender norms for boys as a child), I certainly see her point. I got into technology a child mostly because that what I could do within the environment's "boy" social role. Fast forward a couple of decades, and relative to pretty much all cis women of the same age, I have many more years of experienc…

Holy stereotypes, batman. > Women can be great engineers, we just rarely care to become them How do you presume to know what the majority of women care to be? I'm a woman, and I want to be a great engineer. I was extremely fortunate to grow up in an environment with a female technical role model (my mom), so I easily saw myself going this way, despite the societal emphasis on empathetic skills the rest of the world e…

[deleted]

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#148
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law and medicine are high status jobs, with a lot of people interactions. Yes, programmers have meetings. Not the same level of interaction as medicine, by a long stretch. There are many TV shows glorifying medicine and law. How many TV shows glorify the job of a programmer? How would you make a TV show glorifying the job of a programmer?

So why do young men study CS in college if programmers aren't glorified? Not to mention that being a "nerd" and "computer whiz" has never been a culturally attractive label, no matter what people might say today.

Anecdotally, it was often guys who had no shot at being high status anyway that chose CS, or earlier, who picked computers as a hobby.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#149
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's very close to what gyardley argued. First paragraph is a claim that people who code in their spare time are liabilities rather than assets. Second paragraph is a claim that the tech industry as a whole should recognize this, and take steps to make sure there aren't too many around. That's not actually arguing for firing (I mean, it might be arguing for that, but not necessarily), but it's at a minimum…

'Coding in your spare time' isn't quite as extreme as having no life outside of tech. Hey, I code a bit in my spare time too, so let me clarify. It's the people who don't do anything else but code that I've, in my experience, had real issues with - they might make great computer scientists, but as a group they're not very good in a team of software developers. Arrogance, problems cooperating with others, excessive ni…

I attempted to make my previous comment neutral about the correctness of your claims; it was intended to be a refutation of tptacek's comment. And I apologize for oversimplifying your assertion to be about "coding in your spare time", which was inaccurate (although your original phrasing, "obsessive wretch", was sufficiently shitty that I thought I was doing you a favour by rephrasing, but I now agree that I didn't do the correct rephrasing).

As for your claim itself, I think you have a good point, but you're a bit overextending its consequences, and ralfn's upthread response to you is right on.

I think you're totally right that diversity of opinion and interest is a super useful supplementary skill. And I strongly agree that a team needs to have that diversity on the product side to product useful products. And I agree that a team somewhat benefits from having not just a few product specialists who have that diversity; it's essential to have a few, but it's also helpful to have lots of people with diverse perspectives. And sure, being extremely tech focused (being an "obsessive wretch") is obviously inimical to that diversity. And yeah, there's some unreasonable glorification going on.

But I think there's also something reasonable about that glorification. Although deciding what to build is a huge part of the team's job, also building it is a huge part. Invariably the part that takes more person-hours, at least in a business large enough to have employees. And in my experience, the "obsessive wretches" actually do tend to be somewhat better at this part of the job. Not overwhelmingly better, but better. Not universally so, but as a tendency. That's just my observation from my medium-length career, and I accept your claim that you have different anecdata; if you have useful actual data I'm open to persuasion.

Moreover, very frequently in this industry we hire people who frankly are not currently knowledgeable enough to do the job we're hiring for, but we hire them anyway because it often works out, and we don't want to pay the asking price of the people who already know how to do the job we're hiring for. Call it good (it allows new entrants), call it bad (lots of wheel-reinvention, ageism, etc), but I allege that it's very common. So, who's going to learn faster? My bet is on the monomaniac; maybe this is unfounded. So, I think this is a rational reason to prefer the obsessives.

And I guess I should add that someone who has literally no other interests... okay, I'm with you. That person is likely to be a problem. But I will continue to favour people for whom outside study is one of their primary hobbies over people who do it a bit, and I'll continue to favour people who do it a bit over people who don't do it at all. And note that the example in TFA was not about someone with no other interests.... it was about one individual who did build a fibre-channel network over the weekend, and another individual who realized that they would never do so.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think what's happening here is pretty simple: the people who have "writing more computer code" as their personal hobby are excited to feel superior to those who don't. Wait, all of them? That's a pretty sweeping generalization. I think you should allow for the possibility that a substantial fraction of them do it because they enjoy it. Also, often the sentiment goes the other way. Like: - So, how was the weekend?…

Whoah. I'm not saying that people who write code for fun all do this. I write code for fun and so does my wife. I'm saying that people who claim that writing code for fun makes them superior developers do this.

Good. Because the way I interpreted your comment is that you are opposed to the whole notion.

> people who claim that writing code for fun makes them superior developers do this

What is "this" in this sentence? If "this" = "excited to feel superior" (from your previous comment), then the sentence reads almost like a tautology. If you simply mean that bragging and feeling smug about writing code for fun is kinda pathetic, then I agree. But that's true for bragging and feeling smug about, well, almost anything.

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