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Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

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Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#141

Post by shmerl »

khedoros1 wrote: post #92
shmerl wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, should it really be called merge request? What exactly are they pulling during the merge?

They're pulling changes from another repository. A pull request is a request for someone else (the maintainer) to pull the changes that you're submitting into their repo. You aren't pushing; you're requesting for them to pull. GitLab apparently does call them merge requests, though.

Github calls it pull, even if it's within the same repo, but from different branch. It essentially is a merge anyway.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#142

Post by adrianratnapala »

linkmotif wrote: post #117
adrianratnapala wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like a free, private Aston Martin, but the manufacturer is taking for ever to implement that too. But I take your point. This is why I drive a Nissan.

I'd say GitHub is not Aston Martin if GitLab is Nissan...

Well, my Nissan wasn't free either and I don't use GitLab at all.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#143

Post by shmerl »

thethirdone wrote: post #94
shmerl wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, should it really be called merge request? What exactly are they pulling during the merge?

You are pulling the commits from another repository. The base repository is behind the forked repository and the forker is asking the base to incorporate (pull) the changes (commits).

Why does it need to focus on who is doing it? I think merge is generic enough term that can describe both actors (i.e. if you for example have a right to write into upstream, you can merge it yourself, without asking the primary owner.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#144

Post by gnaritas »

thethirdone wrote: post #96
__jal wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously. Linux will likely outlive GH[1], and more importantly, it doesn't need GH. The current workflow works fine, and I hardly think any potential kernel hackers are choosing not to work on the kernel because it is email-driven. [1] Nothing against them that I don't have with any other commons that depends on corporate beneficence. But companies fail all the time; I can't think of a reason GH is immune.

> The current workflow works fine, and I hardly think any potential kernel hackers are choosing not to work on the kernel because it is email-driven. I'm not so sure. If the kernel development was on Github, I may have looked into contributing, but as it stands, its not worth the trouble to try to contribute (as I don't have anything specific to help with). And, I suspect there are more capable developers who are clo…

Kernel development shouldn't have a low bar, it should have a very very high one. Anyone that finds email a high bar for communication doesn't belong in Kernel development.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#145

Post by gnaritas »

cosinetau wrote: post #105
KekDemaga wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me Linux is the core of the open source movement. If it dies the rest of it might die with it.

Wow. That's bleak. Linux will not last forever, irrespective of how it might change. Change is gonna come someday. Don't get left behind because of sentiment. This isn't a judgment on the Linux project, this is reality.

Linux will likely outlive all of us. Network effects are massively strong for operating systems, we've been stuck with the same basic 3 for decades and that's likely to stay the same.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#146

Post by gnaritas »

ghrifter wrote: post #48
jacquesm wrote: post #11

I'm fine with that. Github is 'too large to fail' already, adding the Linux kernel to the pile and forcing the kernel team into Github's workflow are two big negatives. It would be great for Github but bad for everybody else.

Personally I'm a fan (and user) of gitlab since GitHub's recent policies and that GitHub takes forever to implement simple things that all users would love (like free private repos)

Why on earth would they want to provide free private repo's, that's something they charge for... ON PURPOSE. They aren't taking "forever", they're simply not going to do that.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#147

Post by boomboomsubban »

jowiar wrote: post #30
boomboomsubban wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He solved the problem with git, he's upset that the company trying to make money off it broke it again. Most of the times Linus is an asshole are completely justified. Being rude to groups like Nvidia isn't hindering progress.

I don't much care whether Linus individually has the justification to be an asshole or not. The problem is that Linus being an asshole causes many other engineers to think it's ok/expected/encouraged to be assholes. All the non-assholes quietly disappear and we're left with a room full of assholes.

Seems like those people are just assholes trying to justify their behavior, anyone actually trying to emulate Linus would see thousands of helpful messages for every outburst.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#148

Post by jacquesm »

eridius wrote: post #123
jacquesm wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a pretty shitty attitude to take. Why? The Linux kernel is mission critical, that means that tons of business and individual depend on it for all kinds of stuff that if it went down would be a major event with the losses likely hard to put a figure on. Developing for such an environment tends to be a fairly harsh affair, Linus was not bred for this, he more or less accidentally found himself the leader of a…

Correlation is not causation. Just because Linus managed to become BDFL of a hugely successful project doesn't mean Linus's communication style in any way caused this. And it doesn't mean that he should get a free pass on treating people badly. A lot of people subscribe to the idea that if you don't have a thick skin you shouldn't be in tech. That's a terrible attitude to take, there's absolutely no reason why that s…

> Correlation is not causation. Just because Linus managed to become BDFL of a hugely successful project doesn't mean Linus's communication style in any way caused this.

Just as it does not prove the opposite.

> And it doesn't mean that he should get a free pass on treating people badly.

From you? Or from those people?

If you're not the one that he was talking to why do you feel so strongly about it?

> A lot of people subscribe to the idea that if you don't have a thick skin you shouldn't be in tech.

I didn't say that. And I don't subscribe to that. But if you want to be in a project with a BDFL that tends to be a bit coarse then it certainly won't hurt.

> That's a terrible attitude to take, there's absolutely no reason why that should be true, and it discriminates against a lot of people (including women). This attitude just contributes to the current toxic tech culture.

Yes it would. But that is something that you mixed in all by yourself and you're making Linus the scapegoat for this particular shortcoming of the tech community, whereas Linus is just one person in an arguably un-enviable position who gets a lot of shit thrown at him for a few minor gaffes which the participants took a lot better than the bystanders. And personally I'm more inclined to see these as in the heat of the moment and soon forgotten afterwards, the fact that they are archived forever doesn't take away the dynamics of the original situation. Heck, if I got the kind of hate that Linus gets for his occasional flare-up I'd stick to solo projects. It's bordering on the ridiculous how this is pulled out of proportion.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#149

Post by wongarsu »

Someone wrote: post #129
chubot wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux is one of the few open source projects to with plenty of developers. They don't need or even want your help, especially if your attitude toward tools is rigid, and if you have nothing concrete to contribute. Linus has said this a few times -- in general they don't actively try to onboard new contributors.

So, what's the age distribution of contributors to the main tree, and how does it develop over time? This _might_ show a long-term risk for Linux.

80% of the kernel development is done by companies who want their code in the kernel (whether that's because they develop hardware or because that's less work than maintaining their own patchset).

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#150

Post by jacquesm »

eridius wrote: post #130

> If you don't do something because of a personal dislike, and expect others to cater to your culture and personal preferences, then the problem is you. Are you serious? If Linus is a complete asshole and tells you to fuck off, and you don't like that, the problem is with you ? How can you possibly defend that statement?

> If Linus is a complete asshole and tells you to fuck off

Consider that he might be right and not a complete asshole. Also, consider that you are not the person he insults but someone else. You're making up this strawman very craftily but it is still a strawman: people are coarse in their conversation all the time, it's not a big deal until the recipient declares it to be a big deal. And then they - not you, unless you are the recipient - have all the right in the world to feel offended and to respond in kind if you feel like it or to do it a bit more precise and with more grace if that's your make-up.

But for all the weight given to 'free speech' the fact is that all you're doing is trying to control someone else's language and I find that a far bigger problem than someone throwing out the occasional insult in the process of communicating with others, there are plenty of reasons why that could happen, personality, lack of patience, culture and so on and all of those would be less of an issue than someone deliberately trying to control how others communicate.

Now if Linus had said something like 'you're dumb because you're a woman' or something to that effect I could understand the outrage. But calling someone an asshole - justified or not - when you're not the person being addressed is not enough grounds to embark on a moral crusade and is not enough grounds to lie the diversity problem in tech at that persons feet.

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