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Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

issues.apache.org

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Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#141

Post by bmelton »

ori_b wrote: post #89
neilparikh wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it sane to lose the patent grant if you are a aggressor in a patent lawsuit against Facebook (for any patent, even ones unrelated to React)? The clause also doesn't explicitly cover software patents only, so if Facebook infringes on your hardware patents (which is plausible, since Facebook does hardware related work as well), you still can't sue them.

> Why is it sane to lose the patent grant if you are a aggressor in a patent lawsuit against Facebook (for any patent, even ones unrelated to React)? Why should Facebook support companies that are suing them?

Counterpoint - why would I want to build my business on software that, if the parent company screws me in some unrelated way, I have no recourse but to rebuild my entire software portfolio, or just accept that I've been screwed?

If they were offering something unique or especially distinctive, then maybe it would be worth risking, but as there are half a dozen or so alternatives, why bother putting myself into that particular pickle?

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#142

Post by fencepost »

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #14
softinio wrote: post #4

I really have no idea why react is so popular with such a silly license. I agree with this move. There are plenty of OSS projects out there without patent thing attached to its license so no reason to use react.

Considering almost every single large tech company is using React, presumably there's not much reason for concern? IANAL. But you're not wrong, preact is a great alternative to react and it comes with a permissive license.

I suspect that for a lot of those it's a case of "the development guys want to use this open source library" and nobody in legal has ever been asked. For large companies this is likely an annoyance move, with the argument that nobody who chose to use it is authorized to make that kind of patent - related agreements any more than they're authorized to sell office buildings or manufacturing facilities, but for small tech startups of the sort that Facebook once was this may be a huge hammer.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#143

Post by jordic »

tomelders wrote: post #40
TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering almost every single large tech company is using React, presumably there's not much reason for concern? IANAL. But you're not wrong, preact is a great alternative to react and it comes with a permissive license.

Preact is not an alternative I'd reccomend. It's riddled with very serious bugs. I've found it incredibly difficult to work with.

Are we talking about the same? I only use preact because react is so weight for the web :)

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#144

Post by stale2002 »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #139
didibus wrote: post #131

So if I understand correctly, by using React, you agree that if you sue Facebook, you'll need to stop using React? And that goes no matter the reason why you're suing them for? So say Facebook was infringing on one of your patent, you could still sue them, but you'd have to give up React if you did. Is that correct?

No, this is not correct. If you sue Facebook for infringing on your patents, then you lose the rights to any patents which Facebook may or may not have on parts of React. Nobody has, to my knowledge, found one of these patents to date.

Then why does that line even exist? Why doesn't facebook just get rid of it entirely?

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#146

Post by fencepost »

I was interested in React based on what I'd read and was figuring it'd be worth looking into, but this provides all the reason I need to avoid it - I don't forsee a situation where I would personally or as a small company be suing Facebook, but I could see developing something then selling/trying to sell it to a larger company. If my code comes with a big side of "oh, and if you buy this you won't be able to sue Facebook or its affiliated companies for patent infringement" that could significantly hurt sales chances.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#147

Post by bryanrasmussen »

cma wrote: post #35
numair wrote: post #18

Finally, people are beginning to realize the insanity of this entire PATENTS file situation! When I first brought up how misguided people were for embracing React and projects with this license, I was downvoted to hell on HN. But really, everyone, THINK ABOUT IT. This is a company that glorifies and celebrates IP theft from others, and lionizes their employees who successfully clone others’ projects. They’ve built th…

Yep, the patent grant is not fully reciprocal. As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents (edit: all patents, even on a new jet engine) throughout your whole company. Facebook gives you permission to use only the software patents necessary for React. If your company sues Facebook over an unrelated software patent (edit: as above, any patent), your React license…

Facebook BSD+Patents FAQ https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#148

Post by dankohn1 »

morecoffee wrote: post #115
numair wrote: post #18

Finally, people are beginning to realize the insanity of this entire PATENTS file situation! When I first brought up how misguided people were for embracing React and projects with this license, I was downvoted to hell on HN. But really, everyone, THINK ABOUT IT. This is a company that glorifies and celebrates IP theft from others, and lionizes their employees who successfully clone others’ projects. They’ve built th…

Re Google: You are mistaken. A big open source project by Google, gRPC, recently switched from BSD+Patents to Apache 2.0. https://github.com/grpc/grpc/pull/11432 https://github.com/grpc/grpc-java/pull/3047 https://github.com/grpc/grpc-go/pull/1290

gRPC relicensed to Apache-2.0 as part of joining CNCF. We explain the reasoning here: https://www.cncf.io/blog/2017/02/01/cncf-recommends-aslv2/

(I'm the executive director of CNCF and wrote the blog post. )

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#150

Post by Arianna34 »

Lazare wrote: post #130
khuey wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That nobody seems to know whether there are in fact any patents licensed by the patent grant within React is one of the most frustrating things about it.

Agreed. It gives the entire debate a very metaphysical quality. How can I determine the value of a patent grant when I don't know what the patents are, or if they even exist?

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