Why Germany Educates International Students for Free • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#141

Post by discordianfish » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 9:08 AM UTC

anon_7523 wrote: post #91

My personal experience says, that it is not working out. I cannot tell for the whole country, but I do have some insights, since I am hiring and interviewing students and studied in one of the universities mentioned elsewhere in the thread. There is an English speaking Master program, consisting almost entirely of Pakistani and Indian students. Some facts about them: - They are not required to learn German, so they s…

This comment is so German on so many levels.

The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't good tech jobs in Germany. Arguing for mandatory German classes to 'lock in' talent somehow is simiarly uninspired as tech companies here. What about creating jobs that good people are willing to work at?

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#142

Post by JanSt » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 9:08 AM UTC

markdown wrote: post #128

lispm wrote: post #42

> Why Germany Educates International Students for Free One thing to remember: That university education may not be that expensive does not mean everybody is allowed to study. Universities often set high barriers. In Germany 27% of young adults get an university degree. OECD average is 40%. It's not because Germans are more stupid, but because there are less students allowed to enter University education. Also there a…

That's interesting. Are there options for the 73% that don't go to Uni? Trade schools? What about at lower levels (ages 5-12)... do kids get to progress to the next level regardless of performance in an annual exam (like the US "no child left behind" policy), or do they have to have to repeat a year/level if they fail?

Yes, nearly everyone in Germany either has a university degree or a so called "Berufsausbildung". The Berufsausbildung is a specific training to do a certain kind of occupation (craftsman, computer programmer, carpenter) and is based on approximately 50% of schooling and 50% of hands-on work in a company. It typically takes three years and usually you stay at that company as a worker afterwards

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#143

Post by dalbasal » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 9:08 AM UTC

whack wrote: post #105

alpha_squared wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree No it doesn't? I think we should stop putting schools on a pedestal because of their name. I admire some of the research and work that comes out of those schools, but in the end their degrees are no better or worse than other schools' (regarding undergraduate, I can't speak for graduate). The only differences come down to network and academic…

There can be an "absolute sense" from a financial perspective. For better or worse, having a degree from Harvard/Stanford/MIT can open a number of doors that may be otherwise shut. Doors which can be very financially lucrative. For example, suppose you want to work in finance/law. Most prestigious firms place a very high premium on having a degree from a top university, and pay extremely generously if you get your fo…

Can and will pay off is not exactly the same thing. To break even on an extra 100k within 10 years of graduating, the pre-tax premium on your salary needs to $1.5k -$2k on gross monthly salary. I wouldn't call that a brilliant investment even if it was a lot more certain than it is in reality.

But importantly, there are lot of potential loss scenarios. The student could drop out, get sick at some point in the next 15 years. They could decide they don't want to be a lawyer, get pregnant, go to jail. Anything that gets them off a high earning path becomes a disaster with that kind of debt.

A debt burden like this taken on by young people seems to me to be incompatible with the concept of free society. I can't understand how Americans tolerate it. In most countries, I think the public outcry would be too great.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#144

Post by MarkMc » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 9:13 AM UTC

raphman wrote: post #115

beberlei wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an international student in Germany, you get an automatic work visa for so called student jobs, up to 19,5 hours a week, no limits on wage earned, no extra social security costs. Income tax starts at 8000 a year. As a student, you can get around with 500/mo in Germany, 750 may be the comfortable lower bound

To be clear: 500 € may be sufficient in smaller cities but not in Munich and other cities with high rents.

A student visa allows the student to work 120 days per year. At minimum wage this is about EUR 720 per month. If the student allocates 40% to rent, that means 6 students could afford to pay EUR 1,228. Let's say 2 students per bedroom.

Isn't it possible to rent a 3-bedroom home in Munich for EUR 1,228 per month?

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#145

Post by josh_fyi » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 9:15 AM UTC

alpha_squared wrote: post #103

kough wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those schools are unlike the others. It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree, makes less but still some sense for Tufts and Olin, and makes no sense at all for the rest. And the average college that Americans experience is a 2 year community college; very, very few attend schools of the caliber you're mentioning. It makes no sense to lump all these different schools together w…

> It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree No it doesn't? I think we should stop putting schools on a pedestal because of their name. I admire some of the research and work that comes out of those schools, but in the end their degrees are no better or worse than other schools' (regarding undergraduate, I can't speak for graduate). The only differences come down to network and academic…

> The only differences come down to network and academic history.

Yes, indeed. With a degree from a top university, you are almost guaranteed an A average and can go straight to Wall Street or into other potentially super-lucrative professions. Not every wants that, and there are other paths to get there, but if that's what you want, this is by far the easiest way.

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21615616-not-wha...

http://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/septoct-2014/why-are-h...

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#146

Post by flicken » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 9:23 AM UTC

subpixel wrote: post #85

aphextron wrote: post #23

Should I study engineering in Germany? I'm looking at undergrad programs in California right now and the numbers don't add up for me. Not just tuition, but cost of living as a full time student as well. I also feel like it would be much easier for me (a non-traditional student) to get into a better university over there, as they pretty much just look at your test scores. Not all this GPA/extra-curricular "well rounde…

Pro-tip: consider starting college in the US, taking two semesters of German, and then doing this after your freshman year: http://culturalvistas.org/programs/abroad/congress-bundestag... CBYX is a full year of free study and free living (replete with an allowance, free public transport, general coddling) in Germany, with the added bonus of being official guests of the German parliament. The only requirement is that…

Plus one for CBYX. The first two months are an intensive German course, so you don't technically need to have prior Germany experience (although it helps in order to be accepted). The last five months are for interning.

If you take parent post's suggestion to do two semesters of college in the US first, consider going to a community college. Much cheaper and comparable education to a state school.

Happy to answer questions if you're interested in hearing more about my experiences in the CBYX program (1999-2000) and/or community college.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#147

Post by j7ake » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 9:25 AM UTC

kough wrote: post #100

ilamont wrote: post #84

For a point of comparison, the annual tuition prices for colleges in Massachusetts: http://www.collegecalc.org/lists/massachusetts/most-affordab... Tufts, BC, BU, Olin, MIT, Northeastern, Brandeis all between 45k and 50k. Harvard 41k. When room, board, and books are factored in it's a quarter million dollars over four years. Public colleges (Umass) are a lot cheaper but I've heard "fees" can run up to 10K a semester.…

Some of those schools are unlike the others. It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree, makes less but still some sense for Tufts and Olin, and makes no sense at all for the rest. And the average college that Americans experience is a 2 year community college; very, very few attend schools of the caliber you're mentioning. It makes no sense to lump all these different schools together w…

Going $250k in debt makes you extremely fragile. After you graduate, you're limiting your job opportunities to only ones that pay much higher than others, even if one job was a much better fit for yourself. You are also much more sensitive to adverse job conditions. If you happen to graduate during times of recession, you will be much more hurt than your other unemployed friends.

Staying out of debt relieves you from the need to have to get a job within a certain salary range, allowing you to choose jobs based on criteria beyond salary.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#148

Post by taway_1212 » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 9:33 AM UTC

alpha_squared wrote: post #103

kough wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those schools are unlike the others. It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree, makes less but still some sense for Tufts and Olin, and makes no sense at all for the rest. And the average college that Americans experience is a 2 year community college; very, very few attend schools of the caliber you're mentioning. It makes no sense to lump all these different schools together w…

> It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree No it doesn't? I think we should stop putting schools on a pedestal because of their name. I admire some of the research and work that comes out of those schools, but in the end their degrees are no better or worse than other schools' (regarding undergraduate, I can't speak for graduate). The only differences come down to network and academic…

I'd say one big difference is that in places like MIT you have an option to volunteer on awesome research projects, working under top-notch researchers. This goes a long way towards securing a entry to a top PhD program later, if that's your thing.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#149

Post by ed_balls » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 9:36 AM UTC

discordianfish wrote: post #141

anon_7523 wrote: post #91

My personal experience says, that it is not working out. I cannot tell for the whole country, but I do have some insights, since I am hiring and interviewing students and studied in one of the universities mentioned elsewhere in the thread. There is an English speaking Master program, consisting almost entirely of Pakistani and Indian students. Some facts about them: - They are not required to learn German, so they s…

This comment is so German on so many levels. The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't good tech jobs in Germany. Arguing for mandatory German classes to 'lock in' talent somehow is simiarly uninspired as tech companies here. What about creating jobs that good people are willing to work at?

If you'd double my salary I still wouldn't move to Germany. Learning a new language is too big investment.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#150

Post by discordianfish » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 9:42 AM UTC

ed_balls wrote: post #149

discordianfish wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is so German on so many levels. The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't good tech jobs in Germany. Arguing for mandatory German classes to 'lock in' talent somehow is simiarly uninspired as tech companies here. What about creating jobs that good people are willing to work at?

If you'd double my salary I still wouldn't move to Germany. Learning a new language is too big investment.

Not even talking about attracting talent but retaining it. That being said, in Berlin startups you don't need to speak german. You just need to be down with working for a shitty salary at a meaningless e-commerce project or copycat that is never intended to succeed.