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Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

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Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#141

Post by mercurial »

agumonkey wrote: post #94
beloch wrote: post #31

I'm a canuck who has worked with Turks and has visited Turkey. They're a wonderful people from a beautiful country with a real problem of a person in power. Turkey is almost entirely Muslim, yet they produce alcohol and tolerate its consumption within their borders, even by their own people. Let that fact sink in for a moment. Erdogan is subverting the premier secular democracy of the Islamic world, but nobody seems…

Yet so many people are rooting for Erdogan... to the point of fighting tanks bare hands. People say erdogan managed to improve some things and now people are all praising him madly...

1) There is a conservative majority in Turkey, which has flourished under Erdogan, both economically and societally. They have no reason to stop supporting them.

2) Not wanting a military coup does not make one a supporter of Erdogan.

But yeah, the secularist block seems to be powerless to do anything (and not even talking about the Kurds).

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#142

Post by louithethrid »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #124
louithethrid wrote: post #69

Consider if you will - a diffrent approach to infrastructure altogether. There are no cables, no centralized Servers - just wifi capable devices. How does it route, i hear you asking? It routes by likelihood of connection to social plankton. Social plankton is every group your device ever connects to- and is constituted by those members of the group, which who can gather the most "Yes"-votes about theire prediction,…

I believe you're on to something, and there is a technical solution here. (Mainly I believe that because it's something I've been saying for years ) Here in the states, the NSA was allowed to view data on telephone calls 3 or 4 levels out from a terrorist. So, for instance, if a terrorist called A, and A called B, and B called C, and so on? The NSA could track C or D. The argument against that is that it would cover…

You are right there- but its not just a math problem. Once people would use it, the usual suspects would show up and start to warp this distributed web.

Despots would add sinks that suck in all messages, by pretending to be a known plankton/connection.

Also assume that traditional isps would first try to subvert it and then try to replace it by providing a similar walled in service - warning from the dangerous open source network.

The whole thing would have to be constructed in away like the TOR-Network, preventing the identification of sender and reciver before Arrival.

Finally i think the problem remains, that any sufficiently enough supressing regime, would force its citizens to uninstall such software.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#143

Post by agumonkey »

mercurial wrote: post #141
agumonkey wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet so many people are rooting for Erdogan... to the point of fighting tanks bare hands. People say erdogan managed to improve some things and now people are all praising him madly...

1) There is a conservative majority in Turkey, which has flourished under Erdogan, both economically and societally. They have no reason to stop supporting them. 2) Not wanting a military coup does not make one a supporter of Erdogan. But yeah, the secularist block seems to be powerless to do anything (and not even talking about the Kurds).

I would be hard pressed to believe the people pushing out tanks that night were just anti-coup.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#144

Post by richard_shelton »

azangru wrote: post #65
agsamek wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great summary. One missing thing is that goverments are getting better at using free Internet for propaganda. In Poland we have open Internet so far, but we are increasingly exposed to Russian goverment news/comments that are factually wrong but repeated consistently. Basically - we see the same thing we already saw with free market. It is not free by itself. Countries and companies can use it to establish monopolies…

Being a Russian, I am naturally very curious about this idea of the Russian propaganda getting a stronger and stronger influence over the minds of people in other countries. Could you kindly elaborate on the following issues that mystify me: - Where do people get the Russian news and why do they care about what Russia has to say? I mean, I don't follow Polish news (or French news, or German news, etc.); so why would…

Yes, I can understand your wondering (I'm a Russian too). When I hear about the waves of Russian propaganda all around the globe I can't stop to ask myself a question: "how we become so powerful?". I'm afraid that nowadays some people tend to call any opposite opinion in their countries as a Russian propaganda. And I can understand that with a lack of good opposition/alternative media people start to read Russia Today, just like we here in Russia read BBC and other Western media, especially when we think that our state media tries to hide something from us.

By the way, do you know what a main evil scheme Kremlin uses to brainwash the citizens, to set them against the West? It's not some made-up, fake news. They made a few websites instead, where anyone can read translated articles about Russia, published in Western media. And that's it. As you understand, it's much harder to find something pro-Russian there to translate, than vice versa.

On a serious note, I think that the only way to fight with the streams of fakes (regardless the country) is a restriction of anonymity on the Internet.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#145

Post by hollander »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #40
beloch wrote: post #31

I'm a canuck who has worked with Turks and has visited Turkey. They're a wonderful people from a beautiful country with a real problem of a person in power. Turkey is almost entirely Muslim, yet they produce alcohol and tolerate its consumption within their borders, even by their own people. Let that fact sink in for a moment. Erdogan is subverting the premier secular democracy of the Islamic world, but nobody seems…

I think a major issue with Turkey is that there is a large non-secular voting bloc. Historically, that has been kept in check by periodic coupes by the Kemalist military. However, Erdogan has succeeded in taming the military (as demonstrated vividly by the failed coupe). Thus, the non-secular voting bloc has escaped the historic check. I am afraid, Turkey will become less secular in the next few years. In addition, t…

Well it seems the majority is not that big. He won by a small margin, while controlling all the media. If it had been a true free election, I bet he would have lost this referendum. And if you look at the demographics, people in cities voted against, countryside pro. Turkish people living abroad voted pro Erdogan. I bet most of those people came from the countryside in Turkey.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#146

Post by nebabyte »

louithethrid wrote: post #69

Consider if you will - a diffrent approach to infrastructure altogether. There are no cables, no centralized Servers - just wifi capable devices. How does it route, i hear you asking? It routes by likelihood of connection to social plankton. Social plankton is every group your device ever connects to- and is constituted by those members of the group, which who can gather the most "Yes"-votes about theire prediction,…

let's, a lot, address, control*, and a meshnet does not solve your fundamental problem [0]

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14220269

TL;DR people will not act to maintain an "illegally unregulated" system that has consequences as soon as you give them a licensure-regulated "safe" consequence-free alternative, see radio wave regulation

TLTLDR: the monkeys with sticks do not magically disappear if you build a new box

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#147

Post by cryptarch »

icebraining wrote: post #132
cryptarch wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of western Europe, we should care because we don't have internal OR external border controls, and Turkey is a neighboring country with a lot of refugees to dump on us. I wish I understood why there isn't a move to reinstate border checks in the Schengen area. It seems ludicrous to me to keep internal borders open when it is clear that the external borders have failed.

I wish I understood why there isn't a move to reinstate border checks in the Schengen area. But there is a move. In fact, multiple countries have done so, although temporarily: https://euobserver.com/migration/130260 Thing is, border control isn't free; it may not be visible for many of us, but there are a lot of people reliant on the openness of our borders for their daily lives. Imagine having to pass a border chec…

I have nothing.

I sometimes miss having more black-and-white opinions. Real life is hard.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#148

Post by vixen99 »

jstanley wrote: post #117
cryptarch wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of western Europe, we should care because we don't have internal OR external border controls, and Turkey is a neighboring country with a lot of refugees to dump on us. I wish I understood why there isn't a move to reinstate border checks in the Schengen area. It seems ludicrous to me to keep internal borders open when it is clear that the external borders have failed.

All borders should be abolished. No human being has the right to tell any other human being where he can or can't go (with the exception of trespassing on private property, of course).

So you want to abolish the freedom for a group of people to decide how many and what kind of people should be able to take up permanent residence within their community? Good luck with that one. Is there a country anywhere that does that? I wonder that you stop at the family level! I suppose you do. If so, why?

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#149

Post by madeofpalk »

beloch wrote: post #31

I'm a canuck who has worked with Turks and has visited Turkey. They're a wonderful people from a beautiful country with a real problem of a person in power. Turkey is almost entirely Muslim, yet they produce alcohol and tolerate its consumption within their borders, even by their own people. Let that fact sink in for a moment. Erdogan is subverting the premier secular democracy of the Islamic world, but nobody seems…

> Turkey is almost entirely Muslim, yet they produce alcohol and tolerate its consumption within their borders, even by their own people. Let that fact sink in for a moment.

Call me naive, but is this actually a problem? I'm fairly secular and don't know much about how 'Muslim states' operate, but if they're producing alcohol, for it's population who drinks and and doesn't care, what is the actual problem here? Shouldn't the government reflect the values of the people (which has seemingly fine with alcohol consumption)?

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#150

Post by nebabyte »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #124
louithethrid wrote: post #69

Consider if you will - a diffrent approach to infrastructure altogether. There are no cables, no centralized Servers - just wifi capable devices. How does it route, i hear you asking? It routes by likelihood of connection to social plankton. Social plankton is every group your device ever connects to- and is constituted by those members of the group, which who can gather the most "Yes"-votes about theire prediction,…

I believe you're on to something, and there is a technical solution here. (Mainly I believe that because it's something I've been saying for years ) Here in the states, the NSA was allowed to view data on telephone calls 3 or 4 levels out from a terrorist. So, for instance, if a terrorist called A, and A called B, and B called C, and so on? The NSA could track C or D. The argument against that is that it would cover…

There is never a technical solution, because technical solutions can be regulated, illegallized, require licensures, or so on.

People will not mind requiring a license for "thing X" (esp. when airwaves are involved), and will not run software that can get them thrown in jail.

Sociopolitical problems do not have a naiive tech solution. [0] People do not cease being people if you retreat further into technology.

[0] https://xkcd.com/793/

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