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Tech Workers' Values

blog.samaltman.com

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Re: Tech Workers' Values

#141

Post by throwaway71958 »

igk wrote: post #133
throwaway71958 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It will happen. As someone who was born and raised in the Soviet Union and spent the last 20 years in the US, I hope to dear god this doesn't ever happen. I don't know where else I'd have to emigrate if it does. To Mars maybe? What you're describing is essentially "collective enterprise" or "kolkhoz", where nominally you own a share in a venture, but in practice you don't own shit, and as a result you don't consid…

I model you a bit like my father, who grew up in a Soviet satelite state, if he had ended up in the US instead of a country with strong socialist history: he will argue for free education, basic income, national healthcare, nationalization of infrastructure and resources (all of which are pretty socialist ideas), but will immediately revert to referring to kolkhoz and aparatschiks if any politician or activist openly…

That's because he knows for a fact something you can't possibly understand: nothing but waste and suffering can come out of funneling trillions of dollars through an entity that has a monopoly on violence over the populace.

If you want to try and see if Marx was "probably right", go right ahead and emigrate to North Korea.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#142

Post by stale2002 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #78
civilian wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My main objection to unions is that, once they're in a company, employees lose the right to negotiate their own compensation. I want to be able to skip my union dues and deal directly with the company. OR I want to be able to make a union of my own, especially for a functional or values-based subset of coworkers, and have us negotiate separately. This is not just a tech-unions-related complaint, this is a critique of…

>My main objection to unions is that, once they're in a company, employees lose the right to negotiate their own compensation. I want to be able to skip my union dues and deal directly with the company. OR I want to be able to make a union of my own, especially for a functional or values-based subset of coworkers, and have us negotiate separately. Bargaining collectively is the whole point of creating a union in the…

The moment someone removes my individual right to negotiate is the moment I hand in my resignation and go work somewhere that I do have that right.

I will NOT have my coworkers voting on what is "fair" for me to be payed, based on BS metrics like "seniority".

If unions were so great, then how come I make more money than any other union based engineering position?

I have done just fine negotiating my salary on my own, thank you very much.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#143

Post by tropo »

lackbeard wrote: post #35

I can't articulate why exactly... but I have a very bad feeling about this. > We also believe tech companies have an opportunity and an obligation to reduce the polarization we've helped create. I'm pretty sure this kind of thing is just going to make the polarization worse.

Oh yeah.

"We’d also like to discuss how tech companies can heal the divide in our country. [...] We also believe tech companies have an opportunity and an obligation to reduce the polarization we've helped create."

Easy as could be: switch to the other side

"We believe that tech companies can create a better economic future for all Americans"

Probably step #1 is to hire Americans.

"by spreading high-paying technology jobs around the country and other measures. [...] We are planning to hold a meeting on the evening of April 9th in the Bay Area."

Oops. To fix, move the meeting to one of the following: Wyoming, Oklahoma, northern Texas excluding Dallas, Alabama excluding Huntsville, Georgia excluding Atlanta, West Virginia, Tennessee, Montana...

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#144

Post by bigtimeidiot »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #10

We believe that employees should come together and clearly define the values and policies they'd like to see their companies uphold. A tech union isn't the perfect metaphor for this, but it's not far off. If it's going to do anything but be window dressing then it needs to have the teeth of union - so just call it what it is. I've argued for a while that tech workers need a union, but the chorus on HN and other place…

>If this moves the needle on a union then great

I'm trying to figure out why a tech worker union would want to sidle up to, say, YC. As someone who spent a few years as part of the Canadian Autoworkers Union, management were adversaries, not partners. Are the bourgeoisie trying to get out in front of this thing?

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#145

Post by poikniok »

matt4077 wrote: post #118
amorphid wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What benefits would a strong Tech Workers' union to provide? And what percentage of one's income would be membership dues be?

Anything you like, basically. Without a a union there's a power imbalance between employer and employee. People say it's all based on mutually agreed contracts. In reality, you are probably much more dependent on your job than the company is on you. That's because they may lose something like 1/1000 of their employees when they fire you, but you lose 100% of your jobs[1]. Unions are a way correct this balance. Employ…

Well not exactly, you get what other people like, which is generally not what I myself like.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#146

Post by chimeracoder »

cb21 wrote: post #85
amorphid wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What benefits would a strong Tech Workers' union to provide? And what percentage of one's income would be membership dues be?

Susan Fowler should've had a union to complain to, instead of Uber's hostile HR department.

> Susan Fowler should've had a union to complain to, instead of Uber's hostile HR department.

As a minority, you can't assume that a union rep is on your side. Especially if the complaint is against someone else at your company who is represented by the same union, if that person is more politically important (within the union) than you are, you're risking a lot - up to and including retaliatory termination of union membership[0] by speaking out. It's your word against theirs, and you're not the one hiring your representative, so you can't be sure that their incentive is to advocate your case to the bitter end, instead of to brush things under the rug.

If you want someone who has no conflict of interest to advocate your case, you need a lawyer, not HR or a union representative. At best, the latter will refer you to a lawyer (at which point they're not doing anything for you you couldn't do yourself). At worst, they will cost you your job, and possibly your career[1].

[0] Which, incidentally, is not protected by the same laws that protect retaliatory termination by employers.

[1] If you're in an industry that's represented by one single union, having your membership terminated means you should probably start looking for other career options.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#147

Post by bigtimeidiot »

stale2002 wrote: post #142
Barrin92 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My main objection to unions is that, once they're in a company, employees lose the right to negotiate their own compensation. I want to be able to skip my union dues and deal directly with the company. OR I want to be able to make a union of my own, especially for a functional or values-based subset of coworkers, and have us negotiate separately. Bargaining collectively is the whole point of creating a union in the…

The moment someone removes my individual right to negotiate is the moment I hand in my resignation and go work somewhere that I do have that right. I will NOT have my coworkers voting on what is "fair" for me to be payed, based on BS metrics like "seniority". If unions were so great, then how come I make more money than any other union based engineering position? I have done just fine negotiating my salary on my own,…

>I have done just fine negotiating my salary on my own, thank you very much.

And many, many other people haven't. Those people will unionize and won't care a lick to see you go.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#148

Post by stale2002 »

matt4077 wrote: post #118
amorphid wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What benefits would a strong Tech Workers' union to provide? And what percentage of one's income would be membership dues be?

Anything you like, basically. Without a a union there's a power imbalance between employer and employee. People say it's all based on mutually agreed contracts. In reality, you are probably much more dependent on your job than the company is on you. That's because they may lose something like 1/1000 of their employees when they fire you, but you lose 100% of your jobs[1]. Unions are a way correct this balance. Employ…

Sure, band together and fix the power balance on your own, but don't force me to join one.

I am perfectly OK with "fighting" the power imbalance on my own, using a skill called "negotiating my salary" and "voting with my feet".

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#149

Post by locopati »

xienze wrote: post #116
lazyasciiart wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Namely, LGBT stuff, female and minority representation, immigrant's rights, etc. offering parental leave is an excellent example of the kind of thing a union would negotiate, and is also pretty well related to how attractive a company is to women (who are more likely to have childcare responsibilities). Rules against firing someone for being gay or a different religion are a great example of something a union would…

> Rules against firing someone for being gay or a different religion are a great example of something a union would negotiate Except they're not, that's what our existing laws are for. > Why do you see 'working conditions' as unrelated to these topics? Because in my reading of this it doesn't sound like they're going after things like vacation time, pay, IP rights, you know, day-to-day stuff that a union would really…

If companies followed the law all the time, then yes, there wouldn't be a need for unions. There are plenty of examples of companies not following the law in subtle and blatant ways that justify a need for a counter-balance like collective organization by workers.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#150

Post by stale2002 »

bigtimeidiot wrote: post #147
stale2002 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The moment someone removes my individual right to negotiate is the moment I hand in my resignation and go work somewhere that I do have that right. I will NOT have my coworkers voting on what is "fair" for me to be payed, based on BS metrics like "seniority". If unions were so great, then how come I make more money than any other union based engineering position? I have done just fine negotiating my salary on my own,…

> I have done just fine negotiating my salary on my own, thank you very much. And many, many other people haven't. Those people will unionize and won't care a lick to see you go.

Awesome. They can do that, and I will work for the multitude of companies and startups out there that will not unionize.

You can't unionize every startup in the world, and non unionized employees will be able to demand a premium.

Other people are free to burden themselves with union rules, and I will be free to accept the higher salary that I can command because my competition is hindered.

It is a competitive advantage to not be burdened by union rules.

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