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Tech Workers' Values

blog.samaltman.com

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Re: Tech Workers' Values

#41

Post by amorphid »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #10

We believe that employees should come together and clearly define the values and policies they'd like to see their companies uphold. A tech union isn't the perfect metaphor for this, but it's not far off. If it's going to do anything but be window dressing then it needs to have the teeth of union - so just call it what it is. I've argued for a while that tech workers need a union, but the chorus on HN and other place…

What benefits would a strong Tech Workers' union to provide? And what percentage of one's income would be membership dues be?

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#42

Post by Uhhrrr »

One way to start "spreading high-paying technology jobs around the country" would be to advocate for distributing H1-B jobs via auction, rather than lottery. Perhaps the union could work on this!

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#43

Post by pgodzin »

> We believe that tech companies can create a better economic future for all Americans by spreading high-paying technology jobs around the country and other measure

While an obvious positive, this completely ignores the fact that these higher salaries are precisely because we write software that increases efficiency over what a handful of humans can do. So while there is an increase in high paying jobs, there is inevitably a decrease in many more low paying jobs (short-term at least, likely long-term unless we learn how to re-train people better)

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#44

Post by xienze »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #10

We believe that employees should come together and clearly define the values and policies they'd like to see their companies uphold. A tech union isn't the perfect metaphor for this, but it's not far off. If it's going to do anything but be window dressing then it needs to have the teeth of union - so just call it what it is. I've argued for a while that tech workers need a union, but the chorus on HN and other place…

> If it's going to do anything but be window dressing then it needs to have the teeth of union - so just call it what it is.

This sounds like it's going to have exactly zero to do with what a labor union would normally be concerned with -- pay, working conditions, etc. Instead, I have a strong suspicion this is going to be some sort of enumeration of the progressive ideals that all tech workers "should" be concerned with, as dictated by a group of Bay Area tech workers. Namely, LGBT stuff, female and minority representation, immigrant's rights, etc.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#45

Post by AndrewKemendo »

djsumdog wrote: post #25
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #10

We believe that employees should come together and clearly define the values and policies they'd like to see their companies uphold. A tech union isn't the perfect metaphor for this, but it's not far off. If it's going to do anything but be window dressing then it needs to have the teeth of union - so just call it what it is. I've argued for a while that tech workers need a union, but the chorus on HN and other place…

It's interesting because it would need to have the teeth of a union yes, but unlike unions of the past that lobbied for better wages and working conditions, what is being proposed is a union to ensure their company does what the workers feel is morally right for the world (not necessarily their customers, but the greater community of people affected by each companies goals and purposes).

I understand that's the thrust of the post, but practically those things aren't really that much different if done effectively.

You make a good point though and if the intention is that it will result in some kind of engineering code of conduct or Hippocratic oath - then my guess is that it will have too many hurdles. The military code of conduct is immensely difficult to arbitrate and the Hippocratic oath isn't anything without governing boards for certification and licensure.

So there needs to be a power structure somewhere that holds the power of the members if it's going to be worthwhile and that would have to be linked to the other tangibles like pay and time.

It comes down to how and what is measured. Time and Pay are easy to measure, if your MongoDB is being implemented "morally" or not is much muddier.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#46

Post by alphonsegaston »

throwaway29292 wrote: post #22
alphonsegaston wrote: post #11

There's already a solution for this - worker ownership of companies with corresponding democratic rights. We've just emerged from an era where benevolent tech companies were supposed to stand up for us and reflect our values. Instead, they put on a polite face, said the right words to us, and then did whatever served their interests irrespective of our concerns. Repeating this scenario is foolish and only going to wo…

If the root cause of this problem is that -companies violate privacy rights to gather more big data -more data translates to more investment (I'm seeing this happen at my current company right now) -VCs, who are the top of the food chain, are the ones pushing for higher returns (like any rational actor would do) -then shouldn't the government step in and regulate this area? Define standards that would limit the amoun…

The root of the problem is the authoritarian structure of modern enterprise. I know many good people who work at bad companies, who, were they given the chance to have their say, would change things wildly for the better.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#47

Post by theoh »

_xhok wrote: post #28
zorpner wrote: post #6

This is a pretty bizarre and direct ripoff of pinboard's Tech Solidarity, except run by The Man and they'll "select" who's allowed to attend. Classless and tone-deaf would be charitable interpretation.

I see the phrase "tone-deaf" everywhere and still don't get what it means. Is it just another getting-along-with-other-people thing?

It's not "just" anything. It implies that the communication in question doesn't appear to be taking account of context or audience, as if it was a song sung by someone who was literally tone-deaf and didn't realise it (not availing of the feedback loop that keeps a voice in tune). It's not necessarily evidence of disrespect by the communicator, but it is applied when the message seems to be unintentionally inappropriate.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#48

Post by idlewords »

ryanisnan wrote: post #16
zorpner wrote: post #6

This is a pretty bizarre and direct ripoff of pinboard's Tech Solidarity, except run by The Man and they'll "select" who's allowed to attend. Classless and tone-deaf would be charitable interpretation.

As someone who knows little about Tech Solidarity, other than what's shown on their site, it seems like they're a bit different. Sam's group is a little more pointed in the direction of promoting the broader tech community's values into a company, and Tech Solidarity seems to be more about connecting developers to their community and supporting that interaction. Perhaps you can expound?

I've been talking about organizing labor in tech companies around an ethical agenda since December. For example: https://sfbay.techsolidarity.org/2017/01/05/meeting_notes.ht...

That said, I'm happy to hear YC preaching from the same Bible. I would encourage Sam to coordinate with the many groups already working to what is apparently a shared goal.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#49

Post by sidlls »

cortesoft wrote: post #31
EduardoBautista wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I don't understand the people who say "I'd rather work in a company with a good working environment" as if you have to work for peanuts to have a good job. If you are convinced to work for a low salary in the name of "culture" your employer is laughing all the way to the bank.

I don't know... most of those places that pay a low salary in the name of 'culture' are startups, and most of those don't ever make any money... so there isn't really anyone laughing all the way to the bank.

Replace "culture" with some other buzzword or phrase, e.g. "work on hard problems," "intellectually challenging/stimulating," "positive work/life balance," "work on important problems," "be disruptive," etc.

This sort of "anything but financial compensation" compensation is ubiquitous in this industry.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#50

Post by curiousfiddler »

Sorry for digressing from the main intent of the post, but I find it a little odd when in 2017, someone uses the term "worker" to describe me. I try to be definitely more than just that to my team and my organization. Maybe I'm oversensitive, but it just feels weird.
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