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Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

nytimes.com

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Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#141

Post by wolfgke »

veddox wrote: post #99
retox wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that the German people generally are very wary of data being moved around and collected 'unnecessarily'. I think a ploy like this would only backfire on FB.

Yes, I'd second that. While there would no doubt be some sort of outrage from the users, I don't think it would be nearly as strong as suggested. Germans in general, and especially the more educated, tend to be very protective of their data protection rights. If FB attempted something like this, it would be torn to shreds by German media.

> Germans in general, and especially the more educated, tend to be very protective of their data protection rights.

Indeed being German I can say this is true for Germany because of the experiences with two dictatorships on German ground in the 20th century - the last one ending only about 26 years ago. Many people living in the GDR that were under supervision by the Stasi (often without knowing) have read the Stasi file (if it exists) and know what details have been recorded about their lifes and what kind of kompromat could in principle be derived from it.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#142

Post by briandear »

adrianN wrote: post #122
corndoge wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is false. Market dominance does not transform a proprietary product into a basic utility. What I mean is that simply because a proprietary product has a large mass of users does not mean the users have the right to demand that it be regulated like a public utility.

"Using the phone network is a voluntary decision, nobody is forced to own a phone."

There aren't alternatives to a telephone system: there is essentially 'one' telephone. What's App is hardly a monopoly. Users could use SMS, Skype or any number of alternatives that provide almost identical utility. It isn't like comparing a telephone with hand written notes.

Interestingly, what led to What's App? Telephone company monopolies on SMS. The internet itself could be considered a public utility -- not what flows over its wires.

One solution to this, assuming we want to take the public utility route, is to start charging users like it were a utility. Perhaps €10 per month for German users to offset the lost revenue from the data FB won't be allowed to collect. Then the Germans can tax that €10 just like it taxes phones and everyone will be happy. What's App isn't 'free.' Using that service has a cost. Should Facebook just give away their product? Why would a business do that? Facebook employees don't work for free, so why should Germans get to free ride? A really popular service ought not be regulated by the virtue that it's really popular.

There is a mostly free market. What's App isn't essential or even necessary. It's about as 'vital' as Instagram. It isn't like it's the only game in town.. not even close.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#143

Post by rietta »

anotheryou wrote: post #139
FabHK wrote: post #130

Can everyone just please install Wire [1]: * free, * end-to-end encrypted * text and voice chat * with pictures and group chat and what have you, * using the Signal/OpenWhisper protocol, * with desktop and web clients, * open source (GPLv3, and on github [2]), * signup with phone number or email, * based in Switzerland, * what else can you ask for? Signal itself of course is pretty good, secure (recommended by Ed Sno…

I have free choice on which messenger to use, but no choice at all on which messenger to reach my friends. And sadly I know I'd loose all the less close long distance friends if I refused to talk about private things on facebook all-together. It was hard enough to make some people switch to telegram, but at least some of my frequent contacts arrived there. On signal I've been lonely ever since, no Idea how to make pe…

Yeah, I use PGP routinely, but really mostly as a way to get servers to encrypt SQL backups and things. So my own system admin purposes without a lot of PGP-encrypted communication with anyone.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#144

Post by rglullis »

yulaow wrote: post #95
rglullis wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sad to inform you, this is a horrible trap you and many Europeans fall into. All of this legislation comes from lobby groups representing the big telcos, who are just desperately looking for ways to keep the OTT's away. Just a couple of weeks ago a draft bill was published indicating that OTT's must be able to comply with the same regulations as a telco, which means, among things like "ability to call emergency s…

Whatever you are citing is not competence of the "Privacy Regulator" nor it can take any decision on it. The Privacy Regulator rather is pushing for strong end-to-end encryption to protect user data, at least in my country. You are citing something totally different and out of his scope.

"The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy..."

End-to-end encryption, by definition, is something that excludes any third-party from being able to intervene. If you take the Hobbesian view of the State and subscribe to the idea that Government has a legitimate monopoly on violence, how would a government be able to exercise this monopoly without relying on cooperation from any of the end parties? It is not in the interest of Governmental agents to give this much power to its citizens.

End-to-end encryption is something that NO government will ever adopt or actually push to its citizens, ever, unless they are one of the "ends" on this.

I don't buy it, and I hate that I am starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but if the concern about privacy was serious, why haven't we seen any legislation about encryption on email? Which country is actually educating people about PGP? Why is the privacy concern only for phone and messaging, where the telcos have been making their money all these years?

You can have a "Privacy Regulator" all you want, in the end it is just a role that is being used to give some sense of legitimacy in this play directed by the corporations.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#145

Post by vazamb »

leshow wrote: post #110
teekert wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatsapp gained massive users with their "no commercials ever" claim. They were a small independent company. And people arguably got invested in the network as a result. Now they reverse on that but the public feels locked in. I myself think... just switch to Signal or Telegram, but the amount of WA users is simply massive here in the EU. Everybody uses it.

Telegram is a terrible platform and not at all comparable to signal.

Could you elaborate? I am using Telegram not because of privacy concerns but because of the desktop and tablet clients. I had absolutely no issues so far.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#146

Post by patrickaljord »

detaro wrote: post #43
patrickaljord wrote: post #25

Facebook asked WhatsApp users to give consent before collecting data, which some did. Why should the government intervine between consenting adults agreeing on a contract willfully? Isn't this the definition of tyranny and why we oppose things such as the war on drugs?

Didn't they also say that you can't opt-out of analytics use?

You can opt-out by uninstalling Whatsapp. I mean, if you don't trust them with their analytics, why do you trust them with the rest of their features? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#147

Post by bikamonki »

You can go get an off-contract sim card, use it on a clean Android, create a fake gmail account in order to download and install Whatsapp. Now you make connections (you add family and friends to your contacts) and start communicating. By now both FB and Google know who you are simply b/c other people in your network, not concerned with privacy, have you saved on their contacts list, pressumably under your first and last name. Using analytics data that you inadvertedly share through your usage habits, both companies build a detailed online persona that will never be forgotten. B/c we are creatures of habit and social bonds, it is quite easy to determine who you are and what you do, by indirect information like your locations (gps), connections (contacts), online presence (IPs), browsing habits, etc.

THERE IS NO ESCAPE. Unless you do what they themselves say you should do if you do not agree with the terms: don't use their services.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#148

Post by reitanqild »

pmlnr wrote: post #123
microtonal wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now things are going to get interesting! I completely understand the desire for privacy but I thinkmit's unrealistic to expect that Facebook won't consolidate its data by user across all their applications. Facebook (and Google, etc.) are now in the same business as the credit reporting agencies ... You are their only product. The difference in this particular case is that Whatsapp made an explicit promise that they…

> The difference in this particular case is that Whatsapp made an explicit promise that they would not start sharing their data. They "trust me" Dumb fucks / https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mark_Zuckerberg / They trusted a promise. Again. The only question is how many times can this be done.

Thanks for bringing up the quote. It is worth remembering when it comes to Facebook.

That said:

> The only question is how many times can this be done.

Seems like German courts says it stops here.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#149

Post by TeMPOraL »

danarmak wrote: post #101
pdkl95 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> WhatsApp I'm not talking about WhatsApp. > users never read TOS / EULA Then the user hasn't given informed consent! It's the responsibility of the collecting party to make sure that the user is aware of all aspects of the transaction.

How? If the TOS text is displayed, and the user clicks OK, how can the service provider make sure the user actually read it, let alone understood it correctly? Should the user be required to correctly answer some quiz questions about the TOS every time they use the product? I don't think any users would agree to that, for any product. Do you have a positive example of how to do this successfully?

> Should the user be required to correctly answer some quiz questions about the TOS every time they use the product? I don't think any users would agree to that, for any product.

Well, that's technically a problem of service provider. If you're afraid your product won't be used because of a complicated TOS, then... simplify the TOS. Drop the tons of legal bullshit, and stop hiding shady stuff in it.

The more I think about it the more I like the incentive structure it creates.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#150

Post by briandear »

ajuc wrote: post #109
0xmohit wrote: post #36

Quoting from the link: Facebook said on Tuesday, after the order had been issued, that it had complied with Europe’s privacy rules and that it was willing to work with the German regulator to address its concerns. Two Indian students challenged Facebook on WhatsApp privacy policy changes [0]. The following is what WhatsApp counsel told [1]: Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision, we have not forced anybo…

Using a cellphone is voluntarily, too. Post office as well. Can phone operators sell the social graph of users to 3rd parties, then? It's so dumb...

Post office really isn't voluntary. When I get my required tax forms from France, if I don't have the post office, I'm unable to complete an action required by the State. That means the Post Office isn't voluntary unless you want to break the law.

When my kid's school requires What's App in order to submit required documents, then there might be a claim that What's App rises to the importance of the Post Office or the telephone.

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