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Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

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Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#141

Post by eatbitseveryday »

talmand wrote: post #87
eatbitseveryday wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> well-traveled At least colloquially, this term signifies one has been to other countries (or better, other continents) and visited other cultures, immersed in other languages, other governments, other ways of eating, etc. One who stays within a country would not (in my opinion) be "well-traveled", despite the country being enormous. My 2cents.

I believe that definition has a bit of an elitist attitude about it. I don't know you, so I can't say it is your definition, but I have seen it before. I believe it is a totally unfair definition for most people. I define well-traveled as someone who has traveled a significant distance based on their circumstances in life. By your definition a large portion of the people living in the EU are well-traveled just living…

> has a bit of an elitist attitude about it

I agree, there is a kind of snobby adherence to the term by some people, as they see the point of becoming "well-traveled" to have been able to afford it.

I politely disagree that the term -- or idea it was meant to abstract -- is to convey how much distance one has traveled, but rather how varied the places have been that one has lived in. Just a short quick visit, e.g. a many-hundred-mile 2-week scourge through Europe, robs you of the experience of living in a non-tourist area where the environment is nothing like what you are accustomed to.

The idea (phrased as "well-traveled" or otherwise) from my perspective is to learn that many countries have very different ways of life; some have better/free access to health care, or not at all; some have almost no diverse ethnicities (e.g. China), or that in the middle-east, you can have countries with a strong diverse mix of many religions (Lebanon); how foreign country governments treat you (no VISA, vs. register yourself with police everywhere); etc.

For those with hard lives, many can be some of the nicest people. Visit China, other south-east Asian countries, rural India, Africa, as well as the well-developed nations in Europe. The most important trait one should take away from travel is: first-hand experience at the range of life that exists on this planet, something which cannot be read from a book.

We take for granted many of the artifacts and ways we work in our lives; seeing others gives us perspective that becomes a useful skill. I wholeheartedly agree that these skills can be developed without leaving the country, among our own rich, poor; and we are fortunate to have all four climates within our borders, too!

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#142

Post by Mc_Big_G »

coldpie wrote: post #89
Mc_Big_G wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a great argument, just not phrased correctly. It's more like "I had to work hard and make difficult decisions to succeed which included choosing a field that is guaranteed to pay and being obligated to pay back the money I borrowed. Therefore, everybody should have to do the same. If not, then I at least want to be treated fairly."

> Therefore, everybody should have to do the same. Why, though? Depending on how the idea of debt relief shakes out, this might be one of those "sometimes life is unfair" moments that you just have to accept and move on as part of living in a society. The alternative is a massive contraction in buying power, which could certainly directly impact your livelihood. Is the spite worth that?

I believe there is a solution in the middle. It's not all or nothing. Also, your "sometimes life is unfair" costs me $100k+. Seems criminally unfair.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#143

Post by falcolas »

leereeves wrote: post #137
tw04 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>...fer instance: "Here's what 10$ an hour looks like! Had to put in my 2 weeks." And pretty much every reply is "I make way more than that, what are you thinking??" I'd imagine the guy either doesn't know how to show up consistently and on-time, or has such a severe lack of social skills that he can't properly interview for a job. If you can weld like that and can't find a job making more than $10/hr you are doing…

> "I make way more than that, what are you thinking??" Way more than that being $30/hour = $60K per year.

Which is $20k over the US household average.

Not arguing that we could consider it low, but providing more context.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#144

Post by ceejayoz »

r_smart wrote: post #110
ceejayoz wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're Federal loans with a often below-inflation interest rate, the actual good financial habit is often to not pay it off, and instead amass a) an emergency fund and b) sock the rest into retirement via an index fund or something similar.

Below inflation interest rates are long gone. I'm sitting at around 6.5% for most of my debt. And that's after refinancing.

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/types/loans/interest-rates indicates direct undergrad loans are currently at 3.76%. At that rate, you're best off paying as slowly as possible and putting the rest of the money into an index fund.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#145

Post by Broken_Hippo »

joesmo wrote: post #100
icehawk219 wrote: post #10

Part of the problem is that the last few generations have been told the same thing: blue collar jobs aren't "good" jobs. You need to go to college so you can get a "good" job sitting at a desk because those other jobs are below you. If you take one of those blue collar jobs then you've failed and aren't "achieving your potential". The grand irony in all of this is that the people who did go on to become plumbers, ele…

They aren't good jobs. The average salary for plumbers is around $50-55k or so, right around the median for the US. Ok, but certainly not good. For roofers and mechanics, you're significantly below the median around $35k, basically in poverty especially if you have a family. I don't think encouraging people away from education is the problem when salaries are this low (poverty levels).

Here is the thing: A lot of jobs after college are bad jobs if you go by income only. The average teacher's salary is around 40-45k, beginners make much less. Preschool teacher with degree? Barely over minimum wage if you are lucky. Sure, you get summers off, but you also don't have a paycheck during that time.

Business degree? You might be a retail store manager because that is what you found that you actually have experience in... because you worked retail through school.

It is bad all around.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#146

Post by Broken_Hippo »

karma_vaccum123 wrote: post #67
icehawk219 wrote: post #10

Part of the problem is that the last few generations have been told the same thing: blue collar jobs aren't "good" jobs. You need to go to college so you can get a "good" job sitting at a desk because those other jobs are below you. If you take one of those blue collar jobs then you've failed and aren't "achieving your potential". The grand irony in all of this is that the people who did go on to become plumbers, ele…

Not only that, but "tradespeople" start earning right after high school. That four-five year head start is more meaningful than people realize. You could be making a down payment on owning your residence while your friends are still undergrads. Nothing wins in investing like being early.

That depends on whether or not your trade requires some sort of qualifacation or not and whether your high school or surrounding area offers free courses in it. (Occasionally folks will pay to train you, if you meet minimum qualifacations, but you also must work for them for some years).

Otherwise, you wind up going to school a couple more years. You are still likely going to start work 2-3 years sooner than someone going for a 4 year degree.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#147

Post by r_smart »

ceejayoz wrote: post #144
r_smart wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Below inflation interest rates are long gone. I'm sitting at around 6.5% for most of my debt. And that's after refinancing.

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/types/loans/interest-rates indicates direct undergrad loans are currently at 3.76%. At that rate, you're best off paying as slowly as possible and putting the rest of the money into an index fund.

Perhaps it shifted a lot in the last few years. I went back to school to get an EE degree, and it's mostly pretty high interest. Sadly I was pretty financially ignorant until maybe my senior year of my second degree. Plus since I was older, and already had a degree, the amount of money available goes down a lot. I don't know how much that effected my interest rates (though my private education loans were at 10% if you can believe it).

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#148

Post by jrs235 »

melling wrote: post #25
jostmey wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem. You add bankruptcy back in and the student loan problem will disappear. Banks will start assessing each person's ability to pay back loans before giving them a lifetime burden of debt. Fix bankruptcy laws, fix the student loan problem.

How do you evaluate an 18 year old on their ability to pay back the loan? You ask them their major, which will probably change?

Also, one doesn't have to approve loans for the full education. Approve loans per semester. If major changes the creditor could choose not to extend anymore debt. Likewise, creditors could require transcripts as part of qualifying for loans beyond the first semester. A students grades would have weight in whether to continue extending credit (granted some [particularly for-profit] schools might cheat and inflate grades but accreditation of schools would also be factored in loan approval... much like banks rely on home appraisers for mortgages).

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#149

Post by massysett »

icehawk219 wrote: post #10

Part of the problem is that the last few generations have been told the same thing: blue collar jobs aren't "good" jobs. You need to go to college so you can get a "good" job sitting at a desk because those other jobs are below you. If you take one of those blue collar jobs then you've failed and aren't "achieving your potential". The grand irony in all of this is that the people who did go on to become plumbers, ele…

> And over the next 20 - 30 years they're the ones that aren't going to be automated

Not true. Look at any construction site and labor-saving innovations abound. Plumbing comes in new materials like PEX, which takes less labor to install. Large parts of houses are fabricated off-site and shipped in on trucks. No job is immune from automation and increased efficiency.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#150

Post by lawnchair_larry »

phil21 wrote: post #123
readhn wrote: post #108

The only recent grads (within 5 years) with student debt in my circles who could afford and have bought a house recently are: 1. Doctor & Finance couple with combined income $400,000+/year 2. Pharmacist & Finance couple with combined income $200,000+/year 3. Science Research & Quant(finance) couple with combined income $300,000+/year Interestingly - all have finance or medical field/science exposure.. The rest are re…

While I agree with your sentiment in general, do you really think it's normal to be in a house 5 years after graduating? That's still "first steps of my career" phase. Completely unheard of even when I was growing up where I'm from - you would have been seen as doing very well to own a home in your mid/late-20's.

Weird, for boomers in NA it was normal to be in their own house immediately after graduating. Not many lived with their parents after the 18-22 range. Not having a place by 23 would have you defending your reputation.
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