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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#141

Post by basch »

icebraining wrote: post #139
basch wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if i said "can we move this conversation somewhere more private, and outside work" and you said "yes" is there an implication of some consent? could the guy have been imagining that her agreeing to move the convo was her approval, and anything further was her playing hard to get? that said, the magic words "sure as friends in work context" should have been a cease and desist to end any further bright ideas.

That specific wording ("somewhere more private") might imply acceptance of sexual advances, but nowhere do we see those words in the original post, and I find it hard to believe that one would say "yes" to that if one wasn't interested in being asked out.

if a coworker asks me for my personal phone number or email address, something is up. there is a reason they arent using official company provided communication. asking for my phone number sounds like explicit "move this off the record."

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#142

Post by ChemicalWarfare »

icebraining wrote: post #137
ChemicalWarfare wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think once the conversation is moved from the company slack channel to whatsapp qualifies it as getting moved from the work-related realm to the private realm. One can argue that by agreeing to move the convo to whatsapp she sent a "sure let's have a private conversation" message.

"Private conversation" is anything not related to work, from asking if there's a good restaurant to geeking out on the latest TV show episode; it certainly does not imply any sexual attraction!

Agreed. However once the conversation goes private it's just that - a private non work related conversation. Unless there's anything illegal there like physical threats etc it's a private matter between the parties directly involved.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#143

Post by boosting7669 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #62
boosting7669 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the OP hasn't shared all information but if asking someone out and/or complimenting someone's appearance (albeit crudely) is now the equivalent of sexual harassment then be prepared for a rapid decline in population since no one will want to be the first one to make a move.

Continuing sexual advances in a work context after being explicitly rebuffed is textbook harassment. This is, perhaps, nearly the most minor incident possible of that basic pattern, but it also pretty clearly fits it.

Lots of women love playing hard to get. They enjoy the chase. Giving up can be perceived as a sign of weakness. In any case, try explaining this situation to a real victim of rape or sexual harassment like my late grandmother who had to endure brutal, forceful rape at a young age as a Jew in Lithuania during WW2 and you'll see what a first world problem this is.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#144

Post by logfromblammo »

patio11 wrote: post #3

Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER . I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for cause." I would bet substantial money that when you lawyer lawyer lawyer they will advise you to do that and document the heck out of it. The calculus is really, really simple: if you don't, then you will with probability approaching one get this incident or a similar incident cited during a threa…

That is not the consensus. The consensus in the grown-up business world is to protect the company. Protect the company from the sexual harassment suit, and protect the company from the wrongful termination suit.

As such, no one will ever fire for cause on the basis of one incident report on a single interaction that occurred away from the workplace. But you can be certain that everyone in the building gets additional harassment training, and management/HR keeps a closer eye on all employees involved: complainants, suspects, and their direct supervisors.

The company then accumulates sufficient pretext on all the involved employees to justify termination of "at will" employment for any one of them, and then waits to see if anyone will end up costing the company money before pulling the trigger.

That is the consensus. It is not fair. It just saves money. As such, I would caution against looking to the consensus when deliberating on the morality or ethics.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#145

Post by boosting7669 »

nikki-9696 wrote: post #122
boosting7669 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the OP hasn't shared all information but if asking someone out and/or complimenting someone's appearance (albeit crudely) is now the equivalent of sexual harassment then be prepared for a rapid decline in population since no one will want to be the first one to make a move.

"since no one will want to be the first one to make a move." It's a work environment, not a bar. No one should normally need to make a "first move" in this context. Sure, work romances do sometimes happen, but I don't think our population is in any danger if they do not.

That ignores the fact that you've hired human employees. Maybe chemical castration should be a part of the onboarding process these days?

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#146

Post by boosting7669 »

patio11 wrote: post #36
boosting7669 wrote: post #10

This is why I'll never be in any significant management position. I have no interest in babysitting grown up children. My reaction would be to just fire both.

This will inevitably conclude with your employer settling a claim of retaliatory treatment subsequent to reporting sexual harassment for a sum of +/- $500k and with you being fired. Your competent legal advisor will, accordingly, recommend against retaliating against the reporting employee, even if you consider this issue beneath your notice. The laws of the United States on this matter are relatively well-settled an…

I obviously wouldn't fire the employee immediately for that reason. I'd give the employee in question an impossible project, and a few months down the line when the project isn't done I'd fire citing poor performance.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#147

Post by dragonwriter »

cybin wrote: post #81

I once worked at a company where my wife was the director of HR. Her boss the president of the company was being "serviced" my a girl in marketing. On day she didn't get a promotion. Then she sued for sexual harresment. The delema put my wife in the hospital. Ruined my marriage. Ruined the ceo's marriage. Ruined the company. Fire them both! Make it very public that you will not tolerate your time being wasted by idio…

If you fire someone for reporting sexual harassment, they have an open-and-shut retaliation case against you. You've just vastly magnified your legal problems if you do this.

I'm sorry you have had personal issues in your life stemming from your wife dealing with sexual harassment issues from the HR side, but your emotional reaction based on that experience isn't likely to be the basis for sound advice.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#148

Post by boosting7669 »

gruez wrote: post #20
boosting7669 wrote: post #10

This is why I'll never be in any significant management position. I have no interest in babysitting grown up children. My reaction would be to just fire both.

Why both? What did the female employee do wrong?

A startup company is a different beast from a well established organization that has time to kill on moderating interpersonal matters that really should be left to the two private individuals to work out on their own.

If I have an employee whose skin is so graphene thin that being called a MILF is something worthy of getting management involved, forcing the startup company to engage a lawyer in an expensive legal dilemma, well that is a huge waste of company time and resources and is an indication of misplaced priorities. Perhaps this person should find employment at a large established company with an HR department who can be the referee.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#149

Post by JSeymourATL »

> I want to fire him immediately. If I do, she'll know and it will be a violation of the trust she placed in me.

Beyond creating a potential legal liability-- the biz dev guy demonstrated poor decision quality, bad peer relationships, and questionable business acumen. All cause for performance dismissal. He caused the true breach of trust. You can leave your female employee entirely out of any discussions.

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