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I would have hired Doug, but...

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Re: I would have hired Doug, but...

#131

Post by pjbrunet »

rayiner wrote: post #69
curun1r wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I see too many older developers who complain about ageism, but what's really going on is that they're essentially the same developer they were 2-3 years into their career. If you've been working in the industry for over 20 years, employers can and should expect that you've made the most of it. Those developers have very few problems with ageism. It's the ones that have become comfortable and stagnated that have…

I'm not a programmer anymore, so I don't have a horse in this race, but I cringe when people exhort older programmers to "stay current." If you're spending your free time learning about distributed databases, machine learning, cryptography--fields that existed in the 1990's but are more relevant and developed today because of the web--you're becoming a better programmer. If you're figuring out the latest "compile to…

If we look at the market adoption curve (Marketing 101) most of the money and most of the demand is in "old" technology. But extremely old tech, extremely new tech, either way there's going to be demand across the spectrum relative to the supply of developers.

Re: I would have hired Doug, but...

#132

Post by mreiland »

michaelangerman wrote: post #19

I am 55 and have been programming computers since 1975 when I was 15 years old. Do the math, I have been programming now for 40 years. Recently, I had a conversation with someone else about this topic and I told them that I have never been so excited about my career, the field of computer science, and most importantly the opportunities that exist today in the field of technology. The excitement surrounding too many t…

What are you doing that it's keeping your interest?

I sometimes find myself getting tired of technology and while I love software development, I often think about not doing it anymore. After a while it gets old constantly dealing with other people's decisions.

An easy example is working with Powershell Remoting can be a nightmare if you're not intimately familiar with both Windows itself and Windows Remoting specifically. It's extremely hard to simply use it as a shell without so much deep knowledge, something I don't find to be the case on unix systems.

Absolutely not an attack on Windows, just a recent example I've come across where I don't want to have such a deep knowledge of Windows, but I'm forced to in order to deal with a tech that, in theory, should help me be productive without having such deep knowledge.

I have my days where I just get tired of it all. The day I realized IIS forces you to load DLL's in child applications because the parent loads a DLL (even though they can use separate app pools) is one example. I can't imagine why that's the default.

I find myself having to go home and work on things like homegrown emulators and the like just to keep up my love of technology.

Re: I would have hired Doug, but...

#133

Post by lectrick »

michaelangerman wrote: post #19

I am 55 and have been programming computers since 1975 when I was 15 years old. Do the math, I have been programming now for 40 years. Recently, I had a conversation with someone else about this topic and I told them that I have never been so excited about my career, the field of computer science, and most importantly the opportunities that exist today in the field of technology. The excitement surrounding too many t…

I’m 43 and I do worry about this. But… not so much. Been programming since 1982 when I was 10... on a Commodore PET. I was instantly addicted, even though it was a green on black screen, needed to load code on a slow cassette-tape device, and was slow as heck. ;)

You see, in this career you have to be willing to drop everything and learn a new thing. All the time. Make learning new things part of your career.

My strategy is to watch for the “next big thing” and stay at the leading edge of that. 10 years ago, for me, it was the Ruby language, and that has borne much fruit. Now it looks like it’s becoming Elixir, so I’ve been building up a portfolio in that language… just for fun (and maybe profit. Well… Probably profit, down the line.)

Are there 20 to 50 times more Ruby jobs than Elixir jobs right now? Probably. Were there 20 to 50 times more Java jobs than Ruby jobs 10 years ago? Yes. (See where I'm going with this strategy?)

I may not stay as fast as the newest coders, but I will write better code in less time than the guy who writes faster code with more embedded technical debt (which must be paid off in spades, with time, later on), and I’m pretty sure that my ability to mentor others is top-notch, and any good company with 40+ cohorts in management (if also including younger on the front lines) is going to recognize all of that.

I also think that (like it or not… and yep, I struggle with this too) it’s even more important as you age to stay on top of your health… especially in a sedentary job like engineering. It may be a conflating variable here- the demands of family and career (in addition to the effects of age) may add to an engineer’s waistline and double-chin and consequently reduce his “oomph” (or to put it blunter, his T), and ALL of this may contribute to a distaste by the younger teams in hiring the 50+ engineer… Not the age itself, per se, but the impression and deleterious health effects that may typically come along with it. It would be interesting to see statistics which took fitness into consideration.

It may of course seem inappropriate to mention, but the statistics are out there-

http://www.canada.com/health/Bias+against+obese+people+incre...

http://listverse.com/2013/09/27/10-frightening-ways-we-discr... (scroll down to #8)

http://business.time.com/2012/05/02/why-being-overweight-cou...

I DO NOT condone this (heck, I'm a bit overweight right now and these stats are working against me... I'm just aware of them), I'm just wondering if this is a conflating variable.

To all you budding and early-career engineers- If you're doing it because you love it... Don't worry too much. Just stay on your toes, be willing to learn always, and by all means DO NOT EVER "marry a company." The age of the 30-years-at-one-company committed engineer is DONE. You need to look out for #1. Your career will benefit greatly if you switch jobs every so often... Employers do not have your best interests at heart. Don't believe me? http://www.forbes.com/sites/cameronkeng/2014/06/22/employees...

Lastly, if you're 5+ years into this career, NEVER settle for 2 weeks' vacation to start. It's not only a load of bullshit, it's institutionalized hazing AND it hurts the employer (because you'll be less productive overall for the same pay)! http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/the-case...

Re: I would have hired Doug, but...

#134

Post by mark-r »

thinkmac wrote: post #33
michaelangerman wrote: post #19

I am 55 and have been programming computers since 1975 when I was 15 years old. Do the math, I have been programming now for 40 years. Recently, I had a conversation with someone else about this topic and I told them that I have never been so excited about my career, the field of computer science, and most importantly the opportunities that exist today in the field of technology. The excitement surrounding too many t…

well, it is good that you like the things you do. at your age, we youngsters tend to expect you to be in the management level, not at individual contributor level. from time to time, i would see our team hiring engineer with gray hair and requiring special mechanical keyboard, and we all thought "mm.. interesting."

The only reason you're not demanding a mechanical keyboard yourself is that you're not old enough to have used one. They have a totally different feel that is more efficient for fast flawless typing. Not by a huge amount, but if you're in a position to specify your tools why would you not choose the best? I'll bet he asked for a big high-resolution monitor too, and you didn't even blink.

Go ahead and aspire to management if you want, but don't assume everybody wants the same as you. And I hope your attitude changes before you achieve it.

Re: I would have hired Doug, but...

#135

Post by _random_ »

thinkmac wrote: post #33
michaelangerman wrote: post #19

I am 55 and have been programming computers since 1975 when I was 15 years old. Do the math, I have been programming now for 40 years. Recently, I had a conversation with someone else about this topic and I told them that I have never been so excited about my career, the field of computer science, and most importantly the opportunities that exist today in the field of technology. The excitement surrounding too many t…

well, it is good that you like the things you do. at your age, we youngsters tend to expect you to be in the management level, not at individual contributor level. from time to time, i would see our team hiring engineer with gray hair and requiring special mechanical keyboard, and we all thought "mm.. interesting."

I am a "youngster" and I wouldn't mind a 60-years old developer around. Someone who doesn't consider something like Node.js a "new" "technology" and moving code client-side SPA-style a "new" "trend". Even without realising that youth is a temporary state.

PS: mechanical tenkeyless keyboards ROCK!

Re: I would have hired Doug, but...

#136

Post by Dewie3 »

learc83 wrote: post #44
thinkmac wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, it is good that you like the things you do. at your age, we youngsters tend to expect you to be in the management level, not at individual contributor level. from time to time, i would see our team hiring engineer with gray hair and requiring special mechanical keyboard, and we all thought "mm.. interesting."

>requiring special mechanical keyboard Well youngster, you seem to be falling behind the latest trends. Maybe you're not as young as you think. Don't you know all the fashionable programmers/gamers are using mechanical keyboards?

All that clickety-clack must be so satisfying. And annoying to everyone else.

Re: I would have hired Doug, but...

#137

Post by slavik81 »

diminoten wrote: post #85
fennecfoxen wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the modern world if you're not on a trajectory toward the 1% you're losing. And what, exactly, is it that you're losing? You can have a pretty damn fine life without getting anywhere near the 1%.

Legacy. Empire. Providing for your children's children. Giving your loved ones the kind of life they've never even considered possible. Seeing the smile on your mother's face when you get to tell her she can stop working, that you've taken care of her and your father, and your brothers and sisters. The 1% are living in a way that will last longer than they will, on a scale that the rest of us won't achieve in our lif…

> Legacy. Empire.

  'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
  Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
  Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
  Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
  The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: I would have hired Doug, but...

#138

Post by _random_ »

bliti wrote: post #67

As someone who started programming during the mid 80's: - Everything I've learned may be applied to most languages. Meaning that writing testable code generally translates from BASIC to Javascript. - Programming should always make you feel stupid. Feeling comfortable with something means that you stopped learning new things. - Experience != Knowledge. My biggest issue with some older programmers is that they tend to…

Think about it. You start learning Javascript after years of working with C#.

The thought is: "What, again!? Haven't we buried this weakly-typed language back in the 90s, years before C# had been released?"

Re: I would have hired Doug, but...

#139

Post by mgkimsal »

madez wrote: post #129
mgkimsal wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not quite in the same age range, but north of 40, and have been doing this for > 20 years. The tech changes - I don't use BASIC or Z80 machine code day to day. The skills that I can speak to, and the skills I see from others with this level of experience, are problem solving and communication, and secondarily the confidence that comes from having made mistakes. Few projects fail miserably solely due to technical…

We younger folks are incredibly curious about what you've learned. Can you elaborate on the topics you mentioned or recommend other sources? Can you give tips on best practices?

Hrm...

Not sure I have any specific sources to share (others might) but after working with all types of hardware, languages, business realms and what not... you start to see patterns. Human behavior patterns, mostly; the same sorts of needs were there 30 years ago as are here today. People need stuff done yesterday, don't know how to describe what they want, oversold a client on something, etc. The numbers may be bigger, the gigahertz faster, and the memory far greater than people could have imagined, but the problems of translating what people say in to what they want via code is ... fundamentally still the same.

A 16k RAM module was ... $200 in my early days. Then a few years later I got 512k for only $150. Today I can get a 16 gig USB stick for $10, at at a local grocery store checkout aisle no less.

No doubt technology has changed and become more ubiquitous. Peoples' expectations of what's possible and what's normal are somewhat different today than 10-20-30 years ago, but the communication problems are still largely the same. Who's in charge of a project? What are the parameters? What defines "success"?

I'm not sure there's any real silver bullet here - most of the "mythical man month" stuff (from even before my time!) is still largely true (speaking in generalities because I can't think of every single line right now).

Learn to figure out how to communicate better - emails, phone, IM, paper, phone, f2f, etc - they all require different skills, and have different impacts on different teams.

Happy to answer more specific questions here or via email - mgkimsal@gmail.com - not sure if I'm just rambling now or not.

Re: I would have hired Doug, but...

#140

Post by curun1r »

rayiner wrote: post #69
curun1r wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I see too many older developers who complain about ageism, but what's really going on is that they're essentially the same developer they were 2-3 years into their career. If you've been working in the industry for over 20 years, employers can and should expect that you've made the most of it. Those developers have very few problems with ageism. It's the ones that have become comfortable and stagnated that have…

I'm not a programmer anymore, so I don't have a horse in this race, but I cringe when people exhort older programmers to "stay current." If you're spending your free time learning about distributed databases, machine learning, cryptography--fields that existed in the 1990's but are more relevant and developed today because of the web--you're becoming a better programmer. If you're figuring out the latest "compile to…

When I'm interviewing a developer, I'm less concerned with what they've been learning and more concerned with if they've been learning. As long as you've accepted that being a developer means constant change and constantly learning, you'll be able to make up your own mind about whether new fad X is worthwhile or whether your organization should skip it. But if you get to the point where you stop learning, you'll be stuck with a certain set of tools/skills that eventually stop becoming adaptable.

I like to think of it like evolution. Most mutations are not advantageous and die off quickly. The ones that are allow you to outcompete competitors. I've learned 3 new languages this year, toyed with 2 new data stores, and played with/read about countless frameworks and libraries. Most of these technologies took up less than an hour of my time. Some I devoted a half day of hacking with. Others I stuck with for longer. From all of this, I've filtered it down to a handful of tools that I'd consider using in specific situations. This is what I consider staying current. I consider this to be between 10% and 20% of my job as a leader in my engineering org. And it's what I feel that I need to do so that when it's decided that we need to use something other than what we're using now, I feel that I can come up to speed on that new technology quickly.

It gets frustrating interviewing developers who, for the past 20 years, have programmed nothing but Java. Sure, they know a few libraries within the Java ecosystem but, for the most part, all their learning from the past decade was domain-specific knowledge from their last job. And then they want to be rewarded for that "experience" at a new employer. Sorry, that's not going to happen. I can hire a newly-graduated university hire who's more willing and able to put in the time to learn for half what I'd have to pay you. That's not ageism, that's common sense. On the other hand, when I encounter a developer with 20 years experience under their belt that has used that time wisely and has enough tools in their utility belt to make Batman jealous, I'm more than willing to bring them on and pay them accordingly. They'll be a great mentor to all the younger hires I'm forced to make.

The key point of contention that I have with you is that I don't consider time spent learning to be wasted. Ever. Learning itself is a skill that needs to be practiced, even if that means learning something that you'll never use.

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