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Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

economist.com

131–140 of 252 posts

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#131
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well given these are crimes against another person, rather than 'crimes' against oneself, that argument is a load of bollocks!

Where do we draw the line? Say you buy a drug that comes from a cartel that uses kidnapping, rape, and murder to hold their power. It is possible for the drug to have been produced safely, but it wasn't in this case and you are feeding the market. Is the government preventing the drug from being created relevant? What happens if, given a safe production option, those purchasing it do not do their due diligence in che…

>> Where do we draw the line?

Always a tough question :)

>> Say you buy a drug that comes from a cartel that uses kidnapping, rape, and murder to hold their power. It is possible for the drug to have been produced safely, but it wasn't in this case and you are feeding the market.

There are indeed lots of moral questions here. As someone who tends to buy things that are free-range, organic, fair trade etc. I fully agree that one cannot divorce the action of purchase from the background process. This is one (of many) reasons I'm not going to be buying any cocaine or heroin any time soon.

The argument put forward above is that stopping the war on drugs just because we can't win is equivalent to stopping the 'war' on (for example) burglary. Burglary by its very nature, in the commission of the act itself, creates victims. People whose house was broken into and whose stuff is gone. Drug taking does not create these victims in the act of taking drugs itself.

So I would argue that yes, the government preventing the drug from being created and sold openly is very relevant - it is the government regulations that support the extremely lucrative black market as well as the consumers. The cartels, the violence, they could not exist without our laws propping them up.

This is where the comparison with Burglary really breaks down - legalising burglary leads to a world where there is no deterrent to breaking in to someone's house and taking their stuff. A worse world, I hope you'll agree.

Legalising cocaine, for example, would make most of those horrible side-effects go away at the expense of (probably) increased drug-related healthcare costs in the developed world. I think that's a better place to be.

>> What happens if, given a safe production option, those purchasing it do not do their due diligence in checking the source.

What happens with, say, coffee? Some people choose ethical brands. One hopes that there are minimum standards of human rights applied to workers on any product coming in to the country (no slave labour, no blood-diamonds...), and AFAICT there are no coffee cartels using kidnap, rape or murder to protect their hold on the coffee market.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#132
post #90
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I question how genuinely accurate that is. Drug use _started_ as illegal, and so many who have experimented and might have continued to casually use instead later on shied away. Alcohol started as a perfectly normal thing (until modern times, beer was considered a safer drink than water and no one ever considered restricting it to _anyone_) So, I'm not saying you are wrong - only that "Drug users are in contrast a di…

"Drug use _started_ as illegal" Sherlock Holmes was portrayed as a regular cocaine user, and occasional user of morphine. At the time in Britain these were legal. BTW, the "beer was considered a safer drink than water" appears to be a modern myth. See http://leslefts.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-great-medieval-wate... for a summary. It may be that beer was considered more fortifying than water.

>> BTW, the "beer was considered a safer drink than water" appears to be a modern myth

Huh.

From what I understood previously it was more of a misapprehension than a myth - it didn't make you ill because the water was boiled as part of the process, it's just that nobody understood that.... perhaps I am wrong!

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#133
post #52
post #31

It's not often that I have the opportunity to feel proud of the legislators in my home country, but Portugal has been on the leading edge of drug prevention and rehabilitation since we moved from a "war on drugs" to a program of health risk prevention and removed the weight of criminal charges and proceedings from the equation. Some interesting articles below: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/03/portugal-drug-de…

This is my fear. The "War on Drug" really is a health issue, but most people I know that are against the war basically want to smoke more and more pot and/or Libertarians and the reply to stop the war is not and we can help more people.

I'm not sure I follow that reasoning, sorry.

The big "eureka" moment was to start treating drug usage as a health issue instead of a criminal issue. It's not legal to buy or sell drugs in Portugal and if you are found carrying drugs they will be taken away from you (in most circumstances) but it's not a crime to consume them so you won't go to jail or face any prosecution.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#134
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once had a conversation about cannabis with my mother that went along these lines. I told her I'd smoked it a few times, she was shocked, I asked what her concerns were. Over the next half an hour or so I patiently and factually answered all of them. She had clearly been sold fully on the propaganda and had thought, amongst other things, that one puff of weed smoke could potentially kill you if you were unlucky. An…

> Anyway, at the end of this I said "so what do you think about the law now, seems pretty stupid huh?" and she said that no, she still thought it should be illegal because it was just bad, regardless. Facts just don't work on some people. I understand your point here but I don't think that's the case. I think what we're seeing here is someone who has legitimately been brainwashed. To be clear as I do not intend to of…

>> To be clear as I do not intend to offend

No offence taken, and in fact I'm sure you're right!

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#137
post #15
post #9

Anyone interested in the topic should read the LSE report on the Economics of Drug Policy. The facts are staggering, especially on the human and fiscal cost of internal displacement. I bet not many know that Colombia just a few years ago was only beat by Sudan in terms of internal refugees, and it's all due to the drug war. It also gives some perspective to the Western debate – we talk about decriminalisation and hea…

It sorta sickens me that those on the pro-war side of this debate always ignore what happens in South America and parts of Africa. The rhetoric is always about preventing addiction at home, stopping a few American (or British or Australian or whatever) kids from getting hooked and having a tough life. Never mind the destabilised countries, the thousands slaughtered, that's far away and not our problem. Jim-bob having…

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Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#138
post #108

I'm against the drug war and for people's choice to decide what they want to put in their bodies. I'm also against waste, cruel treatment and general stupidity which are also reasons I oppose the drug war. That being said, I believe drug wars can work. China and opium a century ago and modern day Singapore come to mind. The reason the drug war isn't being won in the West is because it isn't being executed properly. S…

It's really hard to point the finger at just one source, such as the execution of the drug war itself.

Maybe the citizens of the USA just aren't serious enough about eliminating drug use, which leads to the election of leaders who aren't serious, which leads to poor execution of the drug war.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#140
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>The article I linked to has a lot of arguments against legalization, which, judging by the comments, the commenters didn't bother to skim through. It's a long article, and it contains ungrounded assertions like this - "Addiction to, or regular use of, most currently prohibited drugs cannot affect only the person who takes them—and not his spouse, children, neighbors, or employers." This is ... well it's just wrong.…

> Many people regularly use alcohol in moderation, there's no reason to think that regular, moderate use of cannabis and various other currently illegal drugs would be any worse when alcohol has one of the worst harm and addiction profiles of any drug. This argument always seems a bit silly to me. Perhaps these people oppose legalization in part because they don't want more drugs to be as common and socially acceptab…

Then perhaps that worry should be stated more often, and we could argue about that worry, rather than have bland, baseless assertions that any use of any currently illegal substance will necessarily lose you your job, family etc.

Fact 1 - lots of people, maybe even most people in the western world, use alcohol to varying degrees and have jobs and families that are not falling apart due to their drug use.

Fact 2 - many currently illegal drugs are less severe in their acute effects than alcohol, are less severe in their chronic effects than alcohol and are less addictive than alcohol.

Combined, these torpedo the point stated in the article, but not your point. The only way to address your concerns there is with studies of what happens in places like Amsterdam and Colorado.

Personally I would argue that even if legalising drugs makes some things worse (more users, more addicts), applying the cost of the drug war to mitigating the harms instead of amplifying them is a win regardless.

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