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Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

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Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#131

Post by rvschuilenburg »

mdemare wrote: post #52

Some facts about cycling in the Netherlands: - After dark, head- and taillights are mandatory for cyclists, and you will be fined if you don't have them. - Cycling on the sidewalk is prohibited. This too is enforced. - Cyclists in the Netherlands are not generally very respectful of traffic laws - they will run red lights when they can. - Practically nobody wears helmets. - 184 cyclist deaths in 2013 (out of +- 10 mi…

Interesting fact about those cyclist deaths: more than half were 70 years of age or older.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#132

Post by danielwarna »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #17
yitchelle wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They seem far more compatible to ride sidewalks and co-travel with pedestrians. Pedestrians and bike riders are not compatible either. I am a bike commuter as well. I live in West Germany at the moment, but I have also bike commuted to work in Australia. In general, commuting in Germany is a much safer proposition than in Australia. The German drivers seem to be more aware and tolerance to the bike commuters. The b…

> Pedestrians and bike riders are not compatible either Maybe you could explain what you're thinking of when you say this? My experience says that pedestrians and bikes are fully compatible; they commonly share sidewalks.

I'd claim that cyclists tend behave a lot more like other motorists than like pedestrians The speed difference between a cyclists and a pedestrian is usually bigger than that between a car and a cyclists, at least in urban traffic. Pedestrians can be very unpredictable and they don't tend to signal very clearly what they are about to do, not to mention that a pedestrian can stop or turn around pretty much instantly.

The optimal solution is of course to build dedicated bike lanes, but if that's not a option I'd rather ride my bike on the road with other cars, than on a shared path with pedestrians. It's also a matter of attitude, roads are built to allow cars to travel between point A and point B as fast as possible. If cycling is to be seen as a form of transportation they also need to have access to proper infrastructure.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#133

Post by benou »

makeitsuckless wrote: post #12

I've repeated this dozens of times whenever Americans come up with lame excuses for why cycling is dangerous in the US: in the Netherlands cyclists still share the road with cars a lot of the time. The rules however are very simple: as a driver, you're not allowed to hit weaker traffic like cyclists and pedestrians. Period. If it happens, the burden of proof that you could do nothing about it is on you. Is this insan…

In France, in case of an accident between a car and a "non-car" (be it a cyclist, pedestrian, skater...), the car is considered responsible by default. Of course they will be a police investigation, but if the police can find any evidence of the "non-car" fault, the car is considered faulty.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#134

Post by gamegoblin »

peterfirefly wrote: post #123
gamegoblin wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cycle around Seattle quite a bit and my preference is always to ride on the sidewalk. As far as I know, this is legal as long as I yield to pedestrians. I can ride nearly the same speed as on the road, and stop or slow down at my leisure. It's much more enjoyable. I never find pedestrians to be an issue. It's always far faster than walking and less stressful than riding in the street.

Maybe they find you to be an issue? If you really do yield to pedestrians than I suppose they don't but most bicyclists are -- like smokers -- not nearly as considerate as they think they are.

My basic strategy is to wait until at least half of the sidewalk is open before passing any pedestrians. I have no problem coasting at pedestrian speed until I have a passing opportunity. It still beats walking.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#135

Post by cperciva »

birken wrote: post #63
jinushaun wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a cyclist in the U.S., but have no problem admitting that probably 90% of the time, the cyclist is at fault. I've ridden bikes in Europe with real bike lanes—U.S. urban cycling culture is not Dutch cycling culture. There is not a culture of responsible cycling. We don't have real bike lanes. We don't stop for red lights. We don't stop for pedestrians. As a result, the U.S. also does not have many drivers or pedes…

I'm a cyclist and I completely disagree with this. I've biked thousands and thousands of miles in SF, and I think probably 80 or 90% of cyclists are responsible and law abiding. There are maybe 10 or 20 percent who are bad, run red lights and do other crazy shit. They are not the majority. And if you want further proof, just read the list of bicycle fatalities in SF [1] and see who is at fault. Most of the time it is…

probably 90% of the time, the cyclist is at fault

probably 80 or 90% of cyclists are responsible and law abiding. There are maybe 10 or 20 percent who are bad, run red lights and do other crazy shit

Just to be clear, your statistics don't actually disagree with each other. It's entirely possible -- I'd even say likely -- that the 10 or 20 percent of cyclists who "do crazy shit" are involved in and responsible for 90% of bicycle-involved accidents.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#136

Post by regularfry »

andygambles wrote: post #43

I cycle to work nearly everyday in the UK. Locally we have crazy cycle lanes that at junction take you off the road and then have to yield to crossing traffic at junctions whereas if I stayed on the road I have right of way. I always stop at red lights. I ride the road so follow the rules of the road. However as a cyclist I also have to take command of a lane to prevent vehicles trying to squeeze by between a central…

As regards nearly being clipped despite wearing a helmet and hi-vis jacket, I don't wear a helmet precisely to avoid being hit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation#Bicycle_helme... is why.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#137

Post by kelnos »

jmadsen wrote: post #101
makeitsuckless wrote: post #12

I've repeated this dozens of times whenever Americans come up with lame excuses for why cycling is dangerous in the US: in the Netherlands cyclists still share the road with cars a lot of the time. The rules however are very simple: as a driver, you're not allowed to hit weaker traffic like cyclists and pedestrians. Period. If it happens, the burden of proof that you could do nothing about it is on you. Is this insan…

I don't understand why people would have trouble with that, unless they are arguing from a purely selfish perspective. It is essentially "Marine Law" - the most maneuverable must make way way for lesser. Perfect common sense.

Not sure that makes sense in this context, or even reflects actual traffic law. A pedestrian is easily more maneuverable than a car (I can turn on a dime when walking, but a car needs much more time and space), but the car should never have automatic right-of-way over a pedestrian.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#138

Post by regularfry »

I've seen a few comments here using the example of "I see cycle couriers doing X, therefore cyclists are at fault". It's worth being cautious trying to learn much from the example of cycle couriers: they're disproportionately visible members of the cycling population, they spend all their working days on bikes so they're disproportionately good at it and very confident in their skills, added to which they are stereotypically young, male, and have a strong financial incentive to bend the rules to get wherever they're going quickly.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#139

Post by micheljansen »

joncrocks wrote: post #106
micheljansen wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, they are neither, really. Bicycles are not comparable to motor vehicles, as they are much slower (50 km/h vs ~15-20 km/h). Bicycles are also not comparable to pedestrians, as they are much faster (5 km/h vs ~15-20 km/h). I think it's a mistake to mix traffic that differs in speed by a factor of 3. As someone who moved from the Netherlands to London, it has taken me years to adjust to absence of real bic…

Does that mean we can get 'fast walker' and 'slow walker' lanes as well? :-)

Do you walk 3 times as fast as a normal pedestrian? :P

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#140

Post by kelnos »

cperciva wrote: post #26

At first I thought this was going to be a parody of "anti-rape-culture" campaigns (e.g., "teaching women to defend themselves from rapists is wrong, because we should be teaching men to not rape women"), but much to my surprise it seems that the author is serious. And so I really have to wonder about his grip on logic: The whole purpose of making cyclists more visible is to prevent drivers from hitting them! Driving…

How, pray tell, am I supposed to avoid hitting invisible cyclists?

You're not. In your example with the cyclist with a burnt-out light, dark clothing, and dark night, if you had hit him, I would very clearly assert that the cyclist was at fault.

I'm fine with requiring cyclists to have front and rear lights in the dark and/or rain (hell, this is already required of cars), but requiring clothing with reflective paint on top of that? It's a bit ridiculous, IMO. Lights are more than sufficient to make a cyclist visible, the rest of the burden should be on drivers to actually pay attention to what they're doing

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