Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism • Hacker News Board

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#131

Post by mikeash » Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 5:33 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #128

mikeash wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are really two completely different concepts contained within "evolution". First there is the concept of gradual change over time in a population of self-replicating entities subject to selective pressure and heritable variation. Second, there is the theory that all life on Earth descended from a single common ancestor that lived billions of years ago, and the current scale of biodiversity comes entirely from t…

The second is definitely not. Actually, the single common ancestor part is now, since we have DNA evidence.

It is well supported, but it's not obvious.

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#132

Post by thirdtruck » Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 5:36 PM UTC

DanielStraight wrote: post #121

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is denying your right to believe in unfalsifiable and unjustified theology. Of course creationism itself isn't anti-scientific, but the majority of people who deeply believe it do have anti-scientific agendas. Is it stupid and backward? I'm not going to conclusively comment on this, but you seem to think that just because it's a choice, it has to be legitimate. No, it can be a wrong choice. Schools shouldn't t…

Obviously it can be wrong ... but it isn't scientifically falsifiable. This is entire crux of what I'm trying to say. You can no more use science to disprove creationism than creationists can to prove it. It isn't a claim which is subject to scientific inquiry. Science has nothing to say on the subject of supernatural events with apparent natural causes. Science is a tool for providing natural, empirical explanations…

Non-scientific explanations do have to account for the neurological research that can explain the causes behind those very idea themselves, though.

We're dealing with faulty analysis software (our brains), one with documented bugs and all kinds of premature optimizations. We have to account for that.

A developer can convince his teammates, QA, management, and even the customer that a given bug is a feature. When that "feature" causes the plane guided by that software to go crashing into a mountain, however, we can't declare the mountain a "moral hazard" or "something beyond the understanding of requirements gathering". Instead, we fix the bug to account for the mountain, tell the developer to stop making that mistake, and try again.

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#133

Post by fnordfnordfnord » Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 5:37 PM UTC

thirdtruck wrote: post #127

DanielStraight wrote: post #73

I really think both sides get this issue very wrong. Creationism is not valid science, obviously. But that's because it isn't science at all. It is a religious belief, which is by definition non-scientific. Here is where the science side gets things wrong. Creationism is a NON-scientific belief, not an ANTI-scientific belief. It's not anti-intellectual or stupid or backward either. It's a choice to believe in the sup…

I'm not clear on what is left to know that falls outside the reach of science. We can trace the very sense of "I am me" to the brain, as seen when it and other anthropocentric systems fail, which leaves the idea of a "soul" in doubt. We can ask "why" something exists instead of nothing, but advances in quantum physics suggests that "nothing" lacks a correlate at that level. If we want to ask "why" the quantum foam ex…

>I'm not clear on what is left to know that falls outside the reach of science.

Ethics. Morality. Art. History. Politics. Philosophy.

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#134

Post by figglesonrails » Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 5:38 PM UTC

DanielStraight wrote: post #121

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is denying your right to believe in unfalsifiable and unjustified theology. Of course creationism itself isn't anti-scientific, but the majority of people who deeply believe it do have anti-scientific agendas. Is it stupid and backward? I'm not going to conclusively comment on this, but you seem to think that just because it's a choice, it has to be legitimate. No, it can be a wrong choice. Schools shouldn't t…

Obviously it can be wrong ... but it isn't scientifically falsifiable. This is entire crux of what I'm trying to say. You can no more use science to disprove creationism than creationists can to prove it. It isn't a claim which is subject to scientific inquiry. Science has nothing to say on the subject of supernatural events with apparent natural causes. Science is a tool for providing natural, empirical explanations…

+1 Popular = important in dealing with other humans, whether you like it or not.

We're not going to convert the whole world to atheism tomorrow, so being able to understand why Buddhists don't drink alcohol or why Muslims say "إن شاء الله" when using the future tense will probably only help you co-exist. A little understanding goes a long way, whether you agree with their beliefs or not.

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#135

Post by michaeldhopkins » Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 5:39 PM UTC

glomph wrote: post #51

mschuster91 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allowing home schooling is even more sick than that kind of bullshit these Texans are doing. In public schools one at least knows what the teachers are teaching. Home-schooled kids are not protected from anything ranging from creationist crap to domestic violence (you as a teacher can spot if a pupil turns up beaten every other day). Not to mention the fact that home-schooled kids are far, far behind "ordinary school…

I find it really interesting that homeschooling has such a bad reputation in america. In the UK my impression of it has been overwhelmingly positive. People who I have met who have been home schooled have often had broader education without the limitations of a national curriculum and with significantly more freedom in what sort of things that they learn. This is balanced by the governments right to the quality of ed…

I think it actually has a good reputation here. The people who seriously oppose it today either are committed to mandatory state education for political reasons or have not met many homeschoolers. Most of the hard political battles about the right to homeschool were won 20-30 years ago. Most public and private schools have programs or arrangements for homeschooling families that wish to take some classes or enroll in some extra-curricular programs, as do junior colleges, so even many professional educators have positive things to say about the method.

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#136

Post by thirdtruck » Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 5:39 PM UTC

stephenhuey wrote: post #100

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Atheist, I am not generally opposed to a religion class, even a compulsory one. Religion is a reality, and ignoring it is as bad as ignoring any other reality. Teaching creationism is worse than a mere study of religion because it promotes rote memorization of demonstrably incorrect ideas as facts.

A fellow Christian and scientist named Dr. James Tour explained that many creationists do not understand the limits of the scientific method. Dr. Tour concludes, "I am sympathetic to the arguments on the matter and I find some of them intriguing, but the scientific proof is not there, in my opinion." http://www.jmtour.com/personal-topics/the-scientist-and-his-... So in response to people clamoring for creationism in…

When I see Tour conflate the discussion of evolution with abiogenesis, however, I lose all hope for the quality of such a debate.

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#137

Post by cobrausn » Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 5:40 PM UTC

poolpool wrote: post #124

cobrausn wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, I don't disagree entirely, but I did go to college with a home schooled guy who was one of the most pleasant, hardworking, and intelligent people I met. I have no idea if religious reasons were part of the reason he was home schooled, he didn't really talk about it, but these blanket labels aren't really helping - home schooling sometimes seems to turn out positive results. If one were to read your post cynically…

Yes and I'm sure there are super talented Full Sail grads who got fulfilling careers after they graduated, but it doesn't mean there is anything redeeming about that education process.

So, like everyone else in this entire comment section, I will ask - do you have any evidence to contradict the studies that show that home-schooled students generally do better than their public schooled equivalent? Or are you merely asserting how you think it should be based on 'common sense'?

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#138

Post by pdonis » Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 5:42 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #131

pdonis wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second is definitely not. Actually, the single common ancestor part is now, since we have DNA evidence.

It is well supported, but it's not obvious .

Maybe not for some values of "obvious". But I think it's at least as obvious as "the concept of gradual change over time in a population of self-replicating entities subject to selective pressure and heritable variation", which was the standard for "obvious" used in the post I was responding to. In fact, the average lay person will probably understand the concept of "DNA evidence" more easily.

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#139

Post by michaeldhopkins » Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 5:43 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #23

tokenadult wrote: post #15

I had to digest after reading this article for a while. (I've also shared the link among my Facebook friends, so that they can help me digest this.) On the whole, I like the author's take that charter schools are a good idea, a good enough idea that while Texas limits the number of charter schools to 300 statewide, it is important to make sure that each charter school offers a sound curriculum. And I think the author…

Allowing home schooling is even more sick than that kind of bullshit these Texans are doing. In public schools one at least knows what the teachers are teaching. Home-schooled kids are not protected from anything ranging from creationist crap to domestic violence (you as a teacher can spot if a pupil turns up beaten every other day). Not to mention the fact that home-schooled kids are far, far behind "ordinary school…

Germany has not had nearly the problems with homeschooling that you imagine. Its prosecution of homeschooling families has been appalling, though. Seizing children (at gunpoint) and forcing them to go to a public school against their parents' wishes, and not allowing the family to leave the country, is not healthy for the children, the parents, the classmates or the country.

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#140

Post by thirdtruck » Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 5:59 PM UTC

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #133

thirdtruck wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not clear on what is left to know that falls outside the reach of science. We can trace the very sense of "I am me" to the brain, as seen when it and other anthropocentric systems fail, which leaves the idea of a "soul" in doubt. We can ask "why" something exists instead of nothing, but advances in quantum physics suggests that "nothing" lacks a correlate at that level. If we want to ask "why" the quantum foam ex…

>I'm not clear on what is left to know that falls outside the reach of science. Ethics. Morality. Art. History. Politics. Philosophy.

All covered by anthropology, psychology, neuroscience, etc.

On that same point, I've never encountered a claim for "subjective" that amounted to more than "the decision requires information not consciously available to the specific individuals in the example."