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Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

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Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#131

Post by pessimizer »

ps4fanboy wrote: post #56
pessimizer wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much longer than since 1920? That's just not true.

Here is a history lesson, this one is the UK. In 1800, the right to vote was based on wealth and gender (male). Less that 3 adults out of every 100 could vote. Since then, there have been some significant changes to the voting regulations: 1832 Reform Act. Extended the right to vote to certain leaseholders and householders. 5 adults out of every 100 could vote. 1867 Second Reform Act. Further extension of the voting…

Except in the US, it was 1870 when everybody but women got the vote.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#132

Post by pessimizer »

athesyn wrote: post #123
pessimizer wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any particular point to object to, or just a general speculation about who I am?

I don't care about arguments with feminists. I'm not a white male or a white woman so those terminologies don't apply to me. It takes time for sexism, racism to work its way out of the system but most of what you said are ridiculous visceral lies.

I don't care about arguments with athesyn. Care to point out a ridiculous visceral lie, or was it enough just to tell feminists just what you think of them?

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#133

Post by quinnchr »

growupkids wrote: post #107
quinnchr wrote: post #40

The goal of women oriented initiatives isn't to tell women they aren't as capable. The author may be perfectly capable and she may be treated on her merit alone, but in aggregate women are not treated like that. From http://www.oecd.org/inclusive-growth/Closing%20the%20Gender%... "They reveal considerable gender differences among the self-employed, particularly those who are also employers. Figure 22.1 shows that acr…

The gender pay gap appears to be a myth: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/the-bigg...

Except the report I linked provides data and statistics that show women entrepreneurs earn less than their male counterparts across OECD countries, which is specifically what I was talking about.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#134

Post by quinnchr »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #89
pessimizer wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do men dominate homelessness, or do old women and single mothers with children? I'd be interested in any links you have. also: >Women are successful in the West In what way? >more of them get college degrees, Oh, that actually is pretty good. >they live longer, Didn't they always? That's just biology, isn't it? >no law forces them to register for the military (in the U.S. at least), That's not a success of women, tha…

That's not a success of women, that's just a sexist (and common) law. Yet when was the last time you saw feminist and women's organizations actively campaigning for more females to register in the military and fight in the battlefield? Practically never, from my experience. Last time I saw it mentioned was an activist who was insisting on diluting military training to make it more accessible to women, which... is not…

"Yet when was the last time you saw feminist and women's organizations actively campaigning for more females to register in the military and fight in the battlefield?"

This is the stupidest argument. Why is this same argument brought up every single time?

Feminists would say that selective service IS sexist, and that we should abolish it. In fact several women's organizations have helped challenge the legality of it to the supreme court (The American Civil Liberties Union Women’s Rights Project for one).

Remember in 1980 when Jimmy Carter urged congress against enacting male only registration and the 97% male congress enacted it anyway? How is this the fault of women?

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#135

Post by PavlovsCat »

Tehnix wrote: post #120
PavlovsCat wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a guy, I wonder how one can miss this. I certainly had and have my fair share of WTF moments... at some point I even vowed to make a documentary with a hidden cam about the shit some men say about women behind their back, who act completely different to their faces, but I never got around to it. And frankly, I think some women don't really want to know. Stockholm syndrome comes to mind. So my heart jumps for joy a…

"the shit some men say about women behind their back" or the shit men say about other men or the shit women say about men or the shit women say about women ... I hardly think it's inherent to men only to vent their frustrations or thoughts about a person, regardless of gender, to another person/group. And in the case of male speaking about females, I suspect (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're in general referring…

FWIW I didn't downvote you, and upvoted you to undo that a little. If people disagree, let them use words instead of buttons, geez...

> I hardly think it's inherent to men only to vent their frustrations or thoughts about a person

Or their disrespect, for that matter. What gets me the most is the difference between "public face" and "bro face" I've seen with some, it can be quite the abyss. Sure it's just anecdotal, but my anecdotes are what they are. As a woman on reddit put it: some men are gorillas wearing men suits, and women, once burned, have to make super extra sure to confirm they're not dealing with one of those before making themselves vulnerable.

I know to a degree this is true the other way around, too... like, I once had a SO who basically wanted to marry me, have kids, and sleep around behind my back (this is not speculation either, she basically ended up admitting as much), and I know another woman who stopped taking the pill because she wanted a baby from her SO, who didn't want one. Not cool at all, and that the child turned out great and they both love it, though they're not together anymore, doesn't change that. But still, for every one such story I know, I know 3 about things like cigarette burns or rape. Still anecdotal, sure, but those anecdotes do irk me.

Ask women close to you about this. Hopefully they will tell you I am full of shit. But maybe, just maybe, they will relate some things to you that will make your toenails curl up.

> And in the case of male speaking about females, I suspect (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're in general referring to sexually-undertoned comments about their appearances?

No, I was thinking of more vicious things as that, more like something akin to racist jokes. Though reducing people to their sexuality sucks too, I guess that can go both ways. The power differential however, and the smugness and cruelty it results in for some men, doesn't, not really.

> I don't think anything will be able to take that away, since we are, as men, by nature (unless you're homosexual of course, but I'd say it's fair to call that a minority) attracted to women and vice verse...

I'm not talking about being attracted to, I'm talking about looking down upon, and seeking to control and use. And NEVER would I say "all men do this" -- but enough, too many men, did/do this around me, and the more intelligent a person is, the more subtle and convoluted it gets. Sometimes it's "just" a friendly, but condescending attitude.. not as bad as other things, but still not good enough.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#136

Post by growupkids »

pessimizer wrote: post #125
growupkids wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's another source, it appears there is no gender gap in pay: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/the-bigg... It also appears the later differences in pay may have more to do with life choices. Such as raising a family, which believe it or not some women consider a higher priority than their careers. Blasphemy, I know, clearly a byproduct of the patriarchy.

"Comparing men and women job-by-job conceals the fact that men still dominate many of the highest-paying jobs. PayScale studied more than 120 occupation categories, from "machinist" to "dietician." Nine of the ten lowest-paying jobs (e.g.: child-care worker, library assistant) were disproportionately female. Nine of the ten highest-paying jobs (e.g.: software architect, psychiatrist) were majority male. Nurse anesthe…

I think you're missing the point of the study. The so called gap doesn't exist when you compare apples and apples. Claiming its a gender gap when a librarian isn't paid as much As a physician is disengeous. The claim is women are paid less, which isn't the truth, they we paid the sAme as men performing the same job. The gender pay gap is a myth.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#137

Post by lotu »

makomk wrote: post #67
sp332 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's probably not true. The money is pretty good, for one thing :) The ratio used to be higher in the USA, and it's still higher in some other countries. To be specific, it seems like boys are encouraged to go into tech while girls are not, which has a few effects. The first is that girls don't really consider tech at all: it's not that they consider and discard it, they just don't think of it. The other is that mo…

The money may be good, but the working conditions are often awful - long hours, continual crunches and emergencies, work-life balance basically a myth... Since women are socialised to care less about income and more about work-life balance than men, and both groups are under pressure from society to fit into those traditional gender roles, the fact the money's good is probably enough to cause much of the gender gap i…

That would explain why nursing, another field with horrible work-life balance, is so male dominated. Except it is not.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#138

Post by ps4fanboy »

pessimizer wrote: post #128
ps4fanboy wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Large companies tend to have a fair amount of nepotism in the top ranking positions. You would have to control for this as well.

Women would benefit from nepotism.

would? You mean they do? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gina_Rinehart

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#139

Post by ps4fanboy »

pessimizer wrote: post #131
ps4fanboy wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a history lesson, this one is the UK. In 1800, the right to vote was based on wealth and gender (male). Less that 3 adults out of every 100 could vote. Since then, there have been some significant changes to the voting regulations: 1832 Reform Act. Extended the right to vote to certain leaseholders and householders. 5 adults out of every 100 could vote. 1867 Second Reform Act. Further extension of the voting…

Except in the US, it was 1870 when everybody but women got the vote.

And in 1920 women got the right as well, given the vast amount of history the human race has are you really upset over 50 years? I imagine the fifteenth amendment took a lot of political too and for to get passed. For 50 years women were denied the right to vote over common man, I fully support their right to vote but you are really blowing things out of proportion.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#140

Post by ps4fanboy »

pessimizer wrote: post #125
growupkids wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's another source, it appears there is no gender gap in pay: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/the-bigg... It also appears the later differences in pay may have more to do with life choices. Such as raising a family, which believe it or not some women consider a higher priority than their careers. Blasphemy, I know, clearly a byproduct of the patriarchy.

"Comparing men and women job-by-job conceals the fact that men still dominate many of the highest-paying jobs. PayScale studied more than 120 occupation categories, from "machinist" to "dietician." Nine of the ten lowest-paying jobs (e.g.: child-care worker, library assistant) were disproportionately female. Nine of the ten highest-paying jobs (e.g.: software architect, psychiatrist) were majority male. Nurse anesthe…

Then stop calling it a wage gap, and start talking about why men are not becoming child care workers and library assistants. When you set the tone of the discussion around income and the n cents on the dollar crap you invite this sort of criticism.
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