From the article: >To be sure, using data to argue about contentious policy issues should always prompt skepticism. Death of journalism right there. Data be damned! On a more serious note: >"There is, indeed, a shortage of tech workers in the Bay Area." That's because it's so darn expensive to live in the Bay Area, and almost impossible at the wages that tech companies generally want to pay for talent. They're knotti…
The myth of America's missing software engineers
131–140 of 143 posts
Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm really interested in this. As a New Yorker, I don't find this principle. Is it superbly difficult to commute to the Bay Area from a less urban surrounding? In New York City, if you don't have the money to pay for an urban apartment you can live in the Bronx or Westchester and easily commute to the city.
If you expect talent to work crunch hours and give mind, body, and soul unquestionably then do you really think, at the end of the day, they should have to schlep out the suburbs because your stingy ass doesn't want to pay a living wage for the Bay Area? Even if that were the case, in order to qualify for the H-1B there have to be no qualified candidates in the US which means either you are doing something nobody is…
No, I don't think it's fair (to answer your central point), merely that it's doable. But I'm not trying to be difficult - I was actually asking if a commute is possible, not being rhetorical for a point. In New York City it is possible to commute, but I wouldn't want to work there and commute to the city from a suburb.
Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, it isn't illegal. By 'that position' do you mean the position being replaced, or the new position created in order to hire the H1B? And are you taking account of the market price of the additional skills that employee brings, or is that not relevant? So here's just one loophole: companies find a lower-paid title, and base the 'prevailing wage' on beginning level employees. Now that the 'prevailing wage' is set, t…
I absolutely can. I arrived in this country on an H-1B, and then I co-founded a company where I repeatedly examined the option of hiring employees on H-1Bs. It never, ever made sense to hire a foreign employee if there was a local one available, even though I have absolutely no bias towards hiring American citizens. The only reason you'd hire an H-1B is if you were out of qualified American engineers, because it is s…
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Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, it isn't illegal. By 'that position' do you mean the position being replaced, or the new position created in order to hire the H1B? And are you taking account of the market price of the additional skills that employee brings, or is that not relevant? So here's just one loophole: companies find a lower-paid title, and base the 'prevailing wage' on beginning level employees. Now that the 'prevailing wage' is set, t…
I absolutely can. I arrived in this country on an H-1B, and then I co-founded a company where I repeatedly examined the option of hiring employees on H-1Bs. It never, ever made sense to hire a foreign employee if there was a local one available, even though I have absolutely no bias towards hiring American citizens. The only reason you'd hire an H-1B is if you were out of qualified American engineers, because it is s…
It's used mostly by outsourcing companies:
Rank H1B Visa Sponsor Number of LCA * Average Salary
1 Infosys Limited 15,810 $75,062
2 Wipro 7,178 $76,920
3 Tata Consultancy Services 6,732 $64,350
4 IBM 6,190 $82,630
http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2013-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx
Those aren't average salaries for a highly skilled worker in an expensive American city.
Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers
#135I posted this in response to a comment the last time this came up. That article was killed, so I'm reposting: Whereas the reason there are open positions for programmers at high tech companies is that these companies want star programmers Maybe they should try paying like stars. What percentage of engineers that aren't founders or within the first five employees make over $300,000 a year? The money is in Silicon Vall…
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Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers
#136Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ok, without the snark, I am specifically saying that this is not journalism. It is an advert with suspect claims.
Would you at least concede that the H1B process is highly vulnerable to someone abusing it by re-titling jobs/requirements with a lawyer's help? I'd agree the data/method/motivation is highly suspect.
With a lawyer's help, many things are possible.
Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers
#137I used to have dreams of moving out to the valley after I finished school, but after checking, rechecking, and then rechecking again the cost of living out there, I pretty much scrapped the idea. The Bay Area may be a cool place to live, but it's not a 250% housing-cost-increase cool to me. Moreover, the pay doesn't match that housing increase. Forget it. For that price I'll wait for somebody to offer a telecommuting…
> 250% housing-cost-increase cool to me 250%? What city are you comparing to? Are you perhaps comparing to a large town?
Here you go:
http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/
Enter St. Louis, MO and San Francisco, CA. Housing is 276% more expensive. Columbia? 252%. Kansas City? 215%. You get the idea.
Also, just for fun, try some other "large towns":
Dallas, TX: 276% Columbus, OH: 268% Austin, TX: 245% Jacksonville, FL: 242% Phoenix, AZ: 225% Atlanta, GA: 217%
Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers
#138I think wrong question is being asked. I think there are enough engineers, it is the quality of product people that is suffering. That often leads to balooning of engineering teams to crush the code run and make the product. So lack of engineers is a symptom not a problem. Speaking from my varied experience , YMMV. 2c.
I'm interested to hear more of this perspective. Are you saying that imagination on the product side is creating insurmountable technical debt?
What I am saying is that few product people have the vision of what is needed - and have the right vision of the end result. Most product people more of iterative meandering tourists with vague idea of the end result rather than captains that have exact understanding where they ought to be in a week - as per having a useful and usable progress that moves everyone measurably closer to successful product.
Maybe I ask too much of my product people, but that's the reality - there are only so many steve jobses out there. People like to believe they have the traits but often lack similar "from the early years" experience of being in the whole basics of production to managing part that jobs had.
So to sum it up, too much of Wrong kind of technical debt. Sort of buying a ferrari when you need a house - because your wife will have a child soon ;)
Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
Part of the problem is that the salaries are just too damn low right now. If you offer a competitive or even above-average salary that's _livable_ in the Bay Area then talent will beat a path to your door. Try to lowball or meet other offers and you'll be stuck without candidates.
I'm really interested in this. As a New Yorker, I don't find this principle. Is it superbly difficult to commute to the Bay Area from a less urban surrounding? In New York City, if you don't have the money to pay for an urban apartment you can live in the Bronx or Westchester and easily commute to the city.
Transportation infrastructure in the bay area sucks. As a New Yorker, you're used to efficiently run subways and trains. In the bay area, Google busses exist for a reason.
Re: The myth of America's missing software engineers
#140Earlier quoted context omitted.
They might well have been a community before your glorious war dead who "established and preserved a nation" slaughtered them. How exactly is that justification for continuing to treat people born on one side of a line as valuable human beings and those on the other worthless? Is it a moral sunk cost theory -- as long as we've committed all these atrocities in the name of nationalism might as well keep going?
They are certainly communities, and it is the obligation of the governing bodies of their communities to maximize the prosperity of the people in those communities just as it is the obligation of the governing bodies of our community to maximize the prosperity of the people in our community. Inside versus outside isn't theoretical. People in other communities will not come to your defense when you need help, they wil…
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