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Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

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131–139 of 139 posts

Re: Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

#131
post #101
post #94

It's ironic that Snowden's destination, Venezuela, is fairly authoritarian itself: the 2008 Economist Intelligence Unit Democracy Index rated Venezuela as a "Hybrid Regime", and as the least democratic state in South America. His countries of aid so far (China, Russia, possibly Cuba) have a similarly poor record. I guess Snowden doesn't have a problem getting help from, or possibly living under, an authoritarian régi…

> His countries of aid so far (China, Russia, possibly Cuba) have a similarly poor record. How poor is their record (including foreign policy) compared with the US?

I see reactions about (horrific!) internal problems of these countries, but does that begin to compare to 250.000 deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Re: Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

#132
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, China and Russia fare extremely bad. Cuba has been better these last few years, but still is a single party undemocratic regime. Venezuela OTOH seems quite reasonable.

"Venezuela OTOH seems quite reasonable." Venezuelan here, and I can tell you that there is nothing reasonable about Venezuela these days. The big scandal here is that USA citizens had been monitored without a warrant but in Venezuela government agencies had been doing that for years and without any shame. They had shown in national TV, audio recordings of phone conversations just to embarrass people that are no pro-g…

This doesn't seem worse than what's happening in the USA (monitoring... just about everybody; keeping hundreds of political prisoners at Gitmo for 12 years and counting) or Europe (UK government spying on... just everyone; or the countless robberies and abuse of power of Sarkozy, Berlusconi and friends).

Re: Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

#133
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's disappointing to see you write this, codex. I thought you were a pretty smart guy. You seem sure that a trial in the US would be a mega-press event. You mean, like the Manning military trial? Are you reading the press coverage of Snowden? The TV press coverage? How do you think he would be portrayed by the US media? Surely you're not that naive. Indeed it might be better for the cause of domestic surveillance to…

It's possible the press would not portray his trial fairly, but the proceedings are public, and a trial would draw continued press, whereas if Snowden successfully seeks asylum, the story goes cold. I should elaborate on Snowden's choice of helper countries: is a national security risk to the United States. Here you have someone in possession of state secrets who needs help from a foreign government. That's the defin…

You seem to be making some assumptions.

1. You assume the story will go "cold" if he's living in another country. Why? How do you know this?

2. You assume he is seeking "protection". The reports say he sought none in HK. You assume he will seek some sort of physical protection in his destination country? What if he doesn't?

3. You surmise he has more "sensitive information" that other governments will want. What if he does not have such information? What if he's just a low level sysadmin who has an interest in Internet freedom and copied documents about controversial Internet spying and gave them to journalists for safe keeping? What about Greenwald, Poitras, the Guardian and the WaPo? Maybe they have copies? Assuming there is "sensitive information" in the docs Snowden copied, shouldn't the journalist be a "threat" too?

He, with the help of journalists, is exposing arguably unconstitutional surveillance of Americans and also arguably illegal hacking activities by the US government. I guess it comes down to whether you see this as a "threat" or as a public service. Or maybe you see only the former as a public service and the later as a threat.

But you can't just assume he is a threat because of "what he might do". Based on his actions and statements so far, we have no reason to believe he's intent on doing harm to his country. He thinks he's a whistleblower. He thinks he's disclosing criminal activity.

And who has suffered from what he done so far? You? Me? Why should we be out to get him? The mainstream media may have a different view of things... but do they speak for you or me? Let's be honest, who do they really speak for? http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird and all that.

Re: Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

#134
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Venezuela OTOH seems quite reasonable." Venezuelan here, and I can tell you that there is nothing reasonable about Venezuela these days. The big scandal here is that USA citizens had been monitored without a warrant but in Venezuela government agencies had been doing that for years and without any shame. They had shown in national TV, audio recordings of phone conversations just to embarrass people that are no pro-g…

This doesn't seem worse than what's happening in the USA (monitoring... just about everybody; keeping hundreds of political prisoners at Gitmo for 12 years and counting) or Europe (UK government spying on... just everyone; or the countless robberies and abuse of power of Sarkozy, Berlusconi and friends).

It is worse in the sense that the have no shame to hide it, at least in the US was a secret. On the other hand, it is ironic to do what he did and then escape to a country where freedom conditions are way worse.

Re: Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

#135
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please correct yourself. There was a recount, and it ended up showing there was no irregularities. And No, it is not a partisan opinion. Unless you think Jimmy Carter and hundreds of other organizations controlling the vote AND the recount are part of a communist plot.

Well I won't edit my parent comment now because it might make your reply here look strange. But whether there was (or even should have been) a recount was hardly my point. It was just to illustrate that Washington has a history of political disagreement with Caracas, it goes both ways, and the recent elections haven't settled things.

Well, if that is your point, it is indeed a valid one. I would say that there are not disagreements but a growing mismatch in the strategic goals of both countries. The more Venezuela looks for building a diversified economy (thus leaving the role of an oil-only USA-only extra-cheap supplier), the more USA will press Venezuela government to subdue it to do what they want. That has nothing to do with being rightist or leftist, or with human rights, or any of that. It's only about geopolitics and USA goals and needs. But yes, you are right, the recent elections haven't settled things.

Re: Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

#136
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not China, but the thought that the US is somehow "free-er" than the rest of the world (yes, including Russia) is false. People in Canada, Australia, France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, UK, Japan are probably as free as people in the US, if not more.

Free-er is not the only metric I care about, but in fact in terms of individual liberties the US is hard to beat. Can you buy assault rifles in any of those countries? Do you elect judges and vote on how national parks control predator populations? It's "free" and democratic in ways that seem pathological. (The fact that the exercise of some of these liberties is a disaster for the majority who would happily surrende…

Can you buy non-pastorised cheese in the USA? What about imported Salame from Italy? Can you kiss a girl of your age if you are 16? Can you drink at 20? No, No, No, No. If your measure of "freedom" is being able to buy assault rifles, your measure of individual liberty is very biased (and silly).

Re: Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free-er is not the only metric I care about, but in fact in terms of individual liberties the US is hard to beat. Can you buy assault rifles in any of those countries? Do you elect judges and vote on how national parks control predator populations? It's "free" and democratic in ways that seem pathological. (The fact that the exercise of some of these liberties is a disaster for the majority who would happily surrende…

Can you buy non-pastorised cheese in the USA? What about imported Salame from Italy? Can you kiss a girl of your age if you are 16? Can you drink at 20? No, No, No, No. If your measure of "freedom" is being able to buy assault rifles, your measure of individual liberty is very biased (and silly).

There are plenty of weird laws in the US, mainly at state level, but overall the US is free and democratic in ways most other countries (with any real central government) are not. Most of your examples (cheese, kissing girls) are bogus. The ban on cured Italian meats is typical non-tariff agricultural trade BS and Europe is more guilty of that than the US (Australia and New Zealand can point fingers though, and also have liberal drug policies, etc.)

But the US wins big on freedom of speech. Almost no other country protects free speech as well as the US does (flawed as it is) and that's not a stupid measure.

Re: Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free-er is not the only metric I care about, but in fact in terms of individual liberties the US is hard to beat. Can you buy assault rifles in any of those countries? Do you elect judges and vote on how national parks control predator populations? It's "free" and democratic in ways that seem pathological. (The fact that the exercise of some of these liberties is a disaster for the majority who would happily surrende…

Can you buy non-pastorised cheese in the USA? What about imported Salame from Italy? Can you kiss a girl of your age if you are 16? Can you drink at 20? No, No, No, No. If your measure of "freedom" is being able to buy assault rifles, your measure of individual liberty is very biased (and silly).

Even Kinder Surprise is banned in the US!

Re: Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you buy non-pastorised cheese in the USA? What about imported Salame from Italy? Can you kiss a girl of your age if you are 16? Can you drink at 20? No, No, No, No. If your measure of "freedom" is being able to buy assault rifles, your measure of individual liberty is very biased (and silly).

There are plenty of weird laws in the US, mainly at state level, but overall the US is free and democratic in ways most other countries (with any real central government) are not. Most of your examples (cheese, kissing girls) are bogus. The ban on cured Italian meats is typical non-tariff agricultural trade BS and Europe is more guilty of that than the US (Australia and New Zealand can point fingers though, and also…

His examples are not bogus. These are real restrictions that limit "freedoms". What about the absurd drinking age? I can count tens if not hundreds of laws that show you how "un-free" people are. What's worse is that adults have actually spent time making them "illegal". It's funny, you think your free but you're always free within the limits. In the US, you are always free to choose between X and Y. Never Z!

I don't necessarily agree with you that an American more freedom of speech than say, a British person. But assuming it is, well, US: 1 (freedom of speech), Europe: 10 (for all the other nonsense illegalities in the US).

P.S: It is quite ironic you are saying the US wins big on freedom of speech in a thread on this article. Not saying that a European state wouldn't do the same to a whistleblower (many wouldn't though; especially Scandinavian countries), but even if they would, the governments didn't put themselves in that situation in the first place.

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