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I Stand With Trolls

braythwayt.com

131–140 of 155 posts

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#131
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more like "You're free to believe whatever you want, but that freedom doesn't automatically make you not a bigot". If someone spends their entire life having to justify their existence to the de-facto ruling class, patience for this "all viewpoints are equally valid" stance can run out fast.

It's more like "You're free to believe whatever you want, but that freedom doesn't automatically make you not a bigot". So many words for 'we won't accept it'! I'm not saying that all beliefs are equally valid. I don't even have a problem with calling people bigots, as long as you're careful to mind the gap between 'speaking' and 'acting'. I am saying that you are not the only one who really, truly, actually believes…

You are making the assumption, to my mind entirely unfounded, that there is any "forcing" going on by the correct (why, yes, I went there) side in any of the issues expressed in this thread. As an example, same-sex marriage doesn't affect them unless they choose to marry someone of the same sex.

Nobody's "imposing" anything on anyone. It is the absence of imposition to which you seem bound and determined to protest. Why?

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#132
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reasoning is bending over backwards a little too far. If the goal was to have marriage equality, then supporting a ban on marriage equality is not going to achieve that. Working against the ban would be much more likely to lead to marriage equality, because the supreme court can always decide over the next marriage equality ban that pops up. Secondly, the supreme court does take public support into account in it…

Hmm, ok so definitely not communicating successfully. First, I don't know if Brendan is pro-Gay, anti-Gay or agnostic. My assertion is that with one data point (a contribution to the prop 208 campaign) is, by itself insufficient deduce his actual feelings. My exposition on the strategy of passing it in order to change the country was not in a vacuum. Several people, myself included, who very much support a bias-blind…

This one data point may be insufficient to have 100% certainty about the opinion of Brendan Eich, but it certainly is enough for 99% certainty. I'm assuming you are a programmer? ;-) Inside a computer predicate logic works very well, but in the real world probabilistic logic usually works very well, rather than using the rule that after k number of data points your belief suddenly flips over from 0 to 1.

Your first (big) paragraph I do not follow. You did not give any justification for why it's better to get the issue into the Supreme Court ASAP while suffering the disadvantages I mentioned, rather than opposing the ban. The Supreme Court does not just take into consideration the constitutionality in some fixed legal sense. They have the freedom to interpret laws, and they do so according to the current sentiment. Just read the court transcripts and you'll see this. For example they constantly debate whether same-sex marriage will be beneficial to society or not. Since you did not reply to any of the arguments I made, I'll repeat one of them: if there would be a next ban (perhaps in a different state) that is successful, then that will go to the Supreme Court. This is no worse than prop 8 going to the Supreme Court, in fact it's better for the reasons I outlined previously. Do you think that people who are against marriage equality are doing themselves a disservice by donating to anti-marriage equality groups? I really do not understand this, but I'd love to be convinced otherwise by logical arguments.

I certainly agree with the next paragraph where you say that it would be stupid to let a difference in political belief heavily influence your job choice. However, insofar as these differences have practical effects on your treatment, chances of being fired, and mental well-being (it's bad for your mental well-being to be in the closet at work or anywhere else), it is smart to take such things into account.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#133
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were you expecting me to defend the religious zealots? I never said I agreed with them. All I'm saying is that they're normal humans who have jobs and lives. They don't get up in the morning and say, "geez, how can we make life hard for pilgrim689 today?" A lot of them honestly believe that they're acting in your interest by saving you from eternal damnation. >Then, when all arguments are done, it is up to the judge…

[deleted]

>it is in no way their place to dictate what is or is not in the previous poster's "best interest".

That's the libertarian position. Which is fine, but know that you're now in the company of those who think it should be fine to sell methamphetamine or asbestos or expired food and medicine because people should be free to decide what's in their own interest.

>When the radical theists do, I am fairly sure the rest of us will be amenable.

I don't think the radicals are the real obstacle. They're just the loudest and the most obnoxious -- and they're the hardest to convince anyway. What you need are the moderates who are just on the other side of the line. They're the ones who you never see on television but you always see in the voting booth. Which is why condemning anyone who disagrees with you is a bad strategy. You don't want to fight against the middle, you want to convince them to fight for you.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#134
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's cultural context, but in my book homophobia has nothing to do with legitimate political beliefs. Being conservative has nothing at all to do with bigotry. Promoting hatred and discrimination towards any group that is part of your (potential) employees and their friends and families would be good reason to fire someone as far as I'm concerned.

I can't believe I'm saying this on HN (where I would like to see less political discussion, not more) but having a different cultural and political viewpoint does not make somebody a bigot. The constant assertion that it does is bullying - an attempt to impose your morals on everybody else. Please - if you literally consider the worlds Catholic and Muslim population (to cite two large religious populations nearly uni…

> religious populations nearly uniformly opposed to your position

There's a lot to unpack here, and I disagree with more than this one part of your comment, but I want to be absolutely clear on this. Catholics are not "nearly uniformly opposed" to SSM. As of 2012, a slim majority (around 52%) of American Catholics support SSM (Pew Research poll). The pope does not speak for all, or even most Catholics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Roman_Catholi...

You probably wouldn't object to calling a racist person a bigot. It is my opinion that just because there are more (open, visible) homophobes than (open, visible) racists doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to call it what it is. Would it have been inappropriate in 1978, the year that the Mormon church finally rescinded their policy of not allowing black people to be ordained, to call Mormon racists out as bigots? I feel that it would not.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#135
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more like "You're free to believe whatever you want, but that freedom doesn't automatically make you not a bigot". So many words for 'we won't accept it'! I'm not saying that all beliefs are equally valid. I don't even have a problem with calling people bigots, as long as you're careful to mind the gap between 'speaking' and 'acting'. I am saying that you are not the only one who really, truly, actually believes…

You are making the assumption, to my mind entirely unfounded, that there is any "forcing" going on by the correct (why, yes, I went there ) side in any of the issues expressed in this thread. As an example, same-sex marriage doesn't affect them unless they choose to marry someone of the same sex. Nobody's "imposing" anything on anyone. It is the absence of imposition to which you seem bound and determined to protest.…

[deleted]

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#136
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more like "You're free to believe whatever you want, but that freedom doesn't automatically make you not a bigot". So many words for 'we won't accept it'! I'm not saying that all beliefs are equally valid. I don't even have a problem with calling people bigots, as long as you're careful to mind the gap between 'speaking' and 'acting'. I am saying that you are not the only one who really, truly, actually believes…

No, I'm not going to accept oppression, and that doesn't make me the bigot who imposes their beliefs on others. Jesus.

As you wish. Though I have to wonder why we're having this conversation if you don't actually want to talk with me.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#137
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more like "You're free to believe whatever you want, but that freedom doesn't automatically make you not a bigot". So many words for 'we won't accept it'! I'm not saying that all beliefs are equally valid. I don't even have a problem with calling people bigots, as long as you're careful to mind the gap between 'speaking' and 'acting'. I am saying that you are not the only one who really, truly, actually believes…

You are making the assumption, to my mind entirely unfounded, that there is any "forcing" going on by the correct (why, yes, I went there ) side in any of the issues expressed in this thread. As an example, same-sex marriage doesn't affect them unless they choose to marry someone of the same sex. Nobody's "imposing" anything on anyone. It is the absence of imposition to which you seem bound and determined to protest.…

why, yes, I went there

You are, alas, making entirely unfounded assumptions about my personal beliefs. The third sentence of my previous post is the only thing I've said in this thread about that. Elsewise I'm just talking general psychology.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#138
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be honestly surprised if deleting messages from your gmail account actually removed them permanently from Google's databases.

Well then if you live in the EU, complain to the Data Protection Commissioners in Ireland. http://www.dataprotection.ie/ViewDoc.asp?DocID=18&UserLa... It appears that you need to have deleted your data already, and then contacted Google and asked to have it permanently deleted. There's an online form and everything.... I vaguely remember that when people complained about Facebook, they were forced to ensure that data…

Thanks for the info! I was unaware of that. I live in the US; I wonder if there is similar jurisdiction here.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#139
Executives shouldn't be trolls. If you're an executive, and you say or do something in public that tangibly affects the market perception in a negative way, you should have known better, and you deserve to be fired.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#140
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are making the assumption, to my mind entirely unfounded, that there is any "forcing" going on by the correct (why, yes, I went there ) side in any of the issues expressed in this thread. As an example, same-sex marriage doesn't affect them unless they choose to marry someone of the same sex. Nobody's "imposing" anything on anyone. It is the absence of imposition to which you seem bound and determined to protest.…

why, yes, I went there You are, alas, making entirely unfounded assumptions about my personal beliefs. The third sentence of my previous post is the only thing I've said in this thread about that . Elsewise I'm just talking general psychology.

Your personal beliefs are irrelevant. You're asserting that we--people who are, you know, not gay-haters--are infringing on them. We are not.
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