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Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

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Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#131
post #113
post #100

Something that I didn't understand - why Linus thinks it is completely nuts that people help finance their kids' education locally? Why the only sane thing is to give money to some anonymous amorphous central government, and then ask for some of it back to build the school and hope some bridge to nowhere or festival of cowboy poetry or some bigwig's 500K/night hotel bills don't come first? I understand you can disagr…

I'm from Scandinavia and I think I can answer that. Over here, there's a pretty strong sentiment that having parents that are well off shouldn't give you an unfair advantage to people whose parents are less well off. Equal opportunities and all that. For instance, in Denmark education is free, including university. You even get a monthly allowance from the state if you study. That's probably why if you want to live o…

>>>> Over here, there's a pretty strong sentiment that having parents that are well off shouldn't give you an unfair advantage to people whose parents are less well off.

This is both counterfactual (money alone matters very little - worst schools routinely spend per pupil more or roughly the same as good schools with no improvement in results) and futile. Of course children of successful educated parents would be better off that children growing in broken up family with absentee parents and zero attention to their education. The only way it could be otherwise is to drag everybody down to the lowest possible level. The whole talk about "unfair advantage" sounds insane to me - why not then beautiful people or smart people have "unfair advantage"? Let's do it like in the Vonnegut's Sirens on Titan (or Harrison Bergeron) - let everybody be dragged down to the lowest level, let everybody has poorest education that we can provide to everybody, let everybody be as ugly as the ugliest person alive, as weak as weakest person alive, as dumb as dumbest person alive, as miserable and sick as the most miserable and sick person alive. This is only way it can be "fair". And people seriously think this approach is not only sane, but the ONLY sane one? Just boggles the mind.

The problem is that redistribution does not solve the problem. Moreover, by becoming obsessed with redistribution solving the real problems only becomes harder. We are way beyond the stage where the money were the actual issue, all bake sales aside. The problem is much harder and has to do with the community, the general environment, the history, the social engineering failures, there's a huge mess there, but it there not because of the lack of government involvement. If anything, partially it's there exactly because of this involvement, which failed to predict the consequences.

>>>> That's probably why if you want to live out the American dream Denmark is a better place than the US to do it

Highly doubt it. Somehow where I live there's Google, Facebook, and hundreds others already done, and thousands others in the making, and in Denmark you have.... well, I couldn't name one, to be frank. Maybe there are some, but not many heard of them. Somehow Stroustrup is in Texas and DHH is in Chicago, and we don't have a huge wave of US citizens moving to Denmark to pursue their dreams.

Maybe if you move there, you have higher chance of secure mediocre living, but it's not exactly what people call "American dream".

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#132
post #131
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from Scandinavia and I think I can answer that. Over here, there's a pretty strong sentiment that having parents that are well off shouldn't give you an unfair advantage to people whose parents are less well off. Equal opportunities and all that. For instance, in Denmark education is free, including university. You even get a monthly allowance from the state if you study. That's probably why if you want to live o…

>>>> Over here, there's a pretty strong sentiment that having parents that are well off shouldn't give you an unfair advantage to people whose parents are less well off. This is both counterfactual (money alone matters very little - worst schools routinely spend per pupil more or roughly the same as good schools with no improvement in results) and futile. Of course children of successful educated parents would be bet…

The phrase "American Dream" traditionally has meant something much more like "secure mediocre living" than the ease of starting a multinational corporation.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#133
post #37

Rather ironic as Finland has a comprehensive schooling system he seems to be arguing for selective schools by the back door. Though in Finland do seem to have the same rigid vocational / academic track similar to Germany where going to the wrong sort of school locks you out of or makes it very hard to go to the top universities. And comparing his experience a tiny European country with a small and homogenous populati…

He explicitly stated that in Finland "you don't have to worry about which school you go to" because they all offer consistently good education. Everyone gets equal primary and secondary education, and the universities are free and select their students exclusively based on entrance exams. This adds up to a system where the only thing that matters is your own skill and motivation. Further, why is it "naive" to think t…

Well A the finish system would be dammed as "socialist" and B America is some much more diverse in terms of wealth and race.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#134
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm German. I'm not sure what you are talking about. You do need to graduate a "Gymnasium" (years 5-12 or 13, right after elementary school). But any "Gymnasium" will do. Every town has a "Gymnasium", you don't have to move or bake cookies. However, the "Gymnasium" is just one three schools. Only about 30% of students attend. If your marks get too bad you have to leave for "lower" school. On the other hand it's possi…

This is what tracking means -- that you get "sorted" into either they "Gymnasium", "Realschule", or "Hauptschule" track after fourth grade. However, this is not what happens in Finland. In Finland, everybody gets the same basic education until age 16, then picks either general upper secondary or vocational upper secondary education (note that vocational upper secondary education does not bar you from attending a univ…

The bar has only recently been relaxed according to wikipedia until recently in the finish system if you went to a poytechnic you where bared from doing a Masters or PHD.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#135

SHOCKING NEWS: Ethnically and linguistically homogeneous people from tiny, frozen nation easier to educate than diverse citizens of world's most-immigrated-to nation. Stay tuned for more surprising revelations, as soon as we hear them!

Shocking news: downsides of the US being blamed on demographics and size. This satisfies the population to accept the crappiness. I've had this conversation too many times, but I'll say it again: Americans (and all people who have not lived abroad) tend to overestimate the differences within their own population and underestimate the differences in outside populations. You overestimate the diversivness of America. Th…

In what way did I overestimate the diversity of America? Our foreign-born population is triple that (by ratio) of Finland, and Finland's foreign-born consist primarily of other scandanavian people who are closely related (Russians and Swedes). Only 80% of Americans are native English speakers while over 90% of Finns are native Finnish.

Note that I'm not just picking on Finland here, I'm pointing out that homogeneous peoples are easier to educate than diverse peoples. Locally nondiverse areas of the USA demonstrate the same phenomenon. Portland, the place that Linus is complaining about, is even more diverse than the USA average with 14% foreign born and 20% of households speaking non-English languages. Almost any major city in the USA is going to have a far more diverse population than Finland, and you'll find that the more diverse the city, the larger its educational problems are.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#136
post #39

Rather ironic as Finland has a comprehensive schooling system he seems to be arguing for selective schools by the back door. Though in Finland do seem to have the same rigid vocational / academic track similar to Germany where going to the wrong sort of school locks you out of or makes it very hard to go to the top universities. And comparing his experience a tiny European country with a small and homogenous populati…

> And comparing his experience a tiny European country with a small and homogenous population and thinking that the USA is going to have the the same challenges or possible solutions is a bit naive. "You seem to be unaware that public education is actually a state matter, that Oregon is about the same size (both physically and in population) as FInland, and that your comparison of all of the US to Finland thus makes…

Well you cant compare a large sparsely populated agricultural state to a small densely populated and richer nation state such as Finland.

And no offense ment here the problem is the Linus doesn't seem to understand some of the political and social history of the USA which would act against his ideas.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#137
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This bumper sticker has been seen on Volvos since the 1970s.

Indeed it has -- for those less familiar: http://www.northernsun.com/images/imagelarge/Bake-Sale-Bumpe...

I was unfamiliar, thanks.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#138
post #27

I can't find the original story I heard a couple of weeks ago (on the radio), but another egregious sign of the state of public education in the US -- people are jailed for lying about their address in hopes of getting their child into a better school. The story I recall hearing a couple of weeks ago was about a woman who was periodically homeless and used the address of her baby sitter (or something like that) to ge…

I think you are probably talking about the story linked below. Very sad but I guess it is a form of fraud and theft. Certainly it indicates something is wrong with our current education system but there are so much other evidence (e.g. dropout rates, test scores, college preparedness) that this is hardly news. http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Tanya-McDowell-sentenced-...

Thanks, that was the story.

Prison time for falsely reporting an address for purposes of schooling? A sad commentary on this society.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#139
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And comparing his experience a tiny European country with a small and homogenous population and thinking that the USA is going to have the the same challenges or possible solutions is a bit naive. "You seem to be unaware that public education is actually a state matter, that Oregon is about the same size (both physically and in population) as FInland, and that your comparison of all of the US to Finland thus makes…

Well you cant compare a large sparsely populated agricultural state to a small densely populated and richer nation state such as Finland. And no offense ment here the problem is the Linus doesn't seem to understand some of the political and social history of the USA which would act against his ideas.

Finland is a little larger than Oregon, and only slightly more densely populated: 16.0/km² vs 15.0/km²; countries as far north as Alaska are generally not "densely populated", but maybe you mentally pictured it to be somewhere in central/western Europe. Homogenity seem more relevant to compare than these factoids, though.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#140
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The goal is to keep the wealth concentrated in the already wealthy. I don't understand this kind of thinking. Perhaps it isn't what you meant. My apologies if that isn't the case. I have heard and read this kind of sentiment before. Is the idea that the rich somehow conspire to do as you suggest? If so, how does that work? Did Steve Jobs receive a letter once his net worth passed a certain threshold inviting him to…

" What would happen if teachers were not unionized and had to compete for their jobs? What would happen if teachers lived in a true meritocracy without a sure protections?" Incidentally, practically every teacher in Finland belongs to an union, and it's unheard of to fire teachers on the basis of bad job performance. A true rationalist looks at the empirical evidence regardless of ideological opinions. You may not "l…

I could be completely wrong on this. I suspect US labor unions are very different from Finnish labor unions.

While I don't have any experience in Finland, I have organized and conducted a number of trade show exhibits in London, Amsterdam, Munich and Barcelona. My experience in dealing with unionized labor in Europe has always been extremely positive. I could not find one negative anecdote to relate here. In sharp contrast to that I could write a book about the bullshit, abuse and cost I have endured at the hands of US labor unions at convention centers in Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Chicago and New York.

Based on these data points I developed this idea that European labor unions operate under different cultural and ideological principles when compared to their US equivalents. I could be wrong.

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