Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail" • Hacker News Board

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#131

Post by shiranaihito » Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 10:25 AM UTC

Thor Muller 31 Mar 09

Gosh, we messed up on the wording of that badge and are changing it pronto. The wording on that badge was actually intended to explicitly state that the space was NOT OFFICIALLY SANCTIONED by the company, but that doesn’t come off at all.

According to this DoucheWeasel, GS tried to say that their page about 37signals is not sanctioned/approved by 37signals, but failed.

Instead they ended up implying that 37signals doesn't care about their customers. Whoops.

Have you ever tried to type "This space is not officially sanctioned by 37signals" but made a few typos and ended up typing "37signals is not committed to open an conversation" instead?

Gosh, that mistake could happen to anyone!

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#132

Post by RWilson » Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 10:43 AM UTC

oldwesley wrote: post #28

tom_rath wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there's any problem with third-parties putting together support forums, Q&A pages or the like. It's when they snatch the look-and-feel of a company's site to try and pass themselves off as an official part of that company (without permission!) which sends my alarm bells ringing.

Yep, look-and-feel is protected as part of a company's intellectual property. As it should be.

You're technically right. For reference, look and feel fall under "trade dress" [http://www.ivanhoffman.com/tradedress.html]. In brief, the relevant case law is:

"To recover for trade dress infringement ... a plaintiff must prove by a preponderance of the evidence: (1) that its trade dress has obtained “secondary meaning” in the marketplace; (2) that the trade dress of the two competing products is confusingly similar; and (3) that the appropriated features of the trade dress are primarily nonfunctional."

Continuing ...

"Strength of ... trade dress depends upon the interplay of two elements, the uniqueness of the trade dress and the investment in imbuing a trade dress with secondary meaning."

... which makes trade dress difficult to prove, even to only a preponderance of the evidence.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#133

Post by troels » Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 1:17 PM UTC

webwright wrote: post #68

enjo wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that other folks on the web would have no idea this was going on. A private e-mail likely results in a private response (changing the wording on 37signals's get satisfaction page). A public exposure gets things changed... as it did. The fact is that GS got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. To think that the wording on that banner was not carefully considered is just plain naive. The 37 signals post is…

I dunno if you've ever worked in a small startup, but to think that all wording that gets out the door gets vetted all the time is just ridiculous. My startup is pretty careful, but we've gotten caught with mistakes or even placeholder content once or twice. Chances are, some lowbie at the company said, "Oh, this will improve the text, I bet. I'll make sure to bring it up in the next design review". If a private comm…

It's rather irrelevant if it was intentional or not - the damage is still very real. If you accidentally shoot someones head off, you're still accountable for the action. Of course there's a difference in how to handle the mistake (murder-one or manslaughter?), but the question of responsibility remains the same. If GS handles this matter well (And so far they seem to), they might get away with some minor damage done to their own reputation, but that's not Jason' fault - That's their own.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#134

Post by axod » Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 2:14 PM UTC

rimantas wrote: post #80

swombat wrote: post #12

I think it's quite bad form to publicly attack another company like this without discussing it in private first. I see no indication that there was any communication between 37Signals and GetSatisfaction prior to this very public post. I've had this kind of thing done to me before, and I think it's really out of order. Essentially, 37Signals have decided, in this case, to trade politeness and "being good" for making…

What? Some random guys put nonsense like "37 signals is not committed blah blah blah" and 37signals should be polite with those bastards? And in case you missed the news, 37signals' main income is not ads on their blog, they have pretty successful web app business. Posting that for "generating page views" sounds ridiculous if you know at least a bit about the company which posted it.

Right, because none of their customers came from their blog :/

If I were them, I would have send an email asking for the page to be removed, and moved on.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#135

Post by Semiapies » Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 3:15 PM UTC

nkurz wrote: post #119

Semiapies wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because when I go to Yelp and look up Morton's Steakhouse in Atlanta GA, I see clearly marked reviews , not "Complaint Department and Feedback for Morton's Steakhouse". I don't see ads for Morton's competitors that only go away if Morton's sends Yelp money. Seriously, you might find the linked blog post interesting.

"I don't see ads for Morton's competitors that only go away if Morton's sends Yelp money." Actually, this seems to be exactly what Yelp does: Here's what advertisers receive, according to an e-mailed sales pitch that a local business owner sent to this newspaper. They can highlight a favorite review to appear at the top of the page about their business. They also show up first in search results for similar businesses…

Hmm, then maybe it is as sleazy as GS in that aspect.

Still, I couldn't reasonably end up on a Yelp page and mistake it for a Morton's Steakhouse feedback page. That's the bigger offense.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#136

Post by Semiapies » Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 3:21 PM UTC

Gibbon wrote: post #105

Semiapies wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fried didn't post about the private sex lives of people working for Get Satisfaction. He accurately described their operation and characterized it unfavorably. While the law differs in other parts of the world, in the United States libel has to involve knowingly false statements meant to give someone a negative image. Making complaints on one's blog and having the party you're complaining about show up, act highly ap…

Any statement can be grounds for defamation if it can be proved true or false in a court. A statement made as a fact (for example "The site also hosts, without permission, company support pages for over 14,000 companies.") is potentially actionable.

By your persistence on this point, I assume you're both British (or otherwise only familiar with UK law) and think UK law is relevant on this point.

It's not.

I'll leave you to ponder the question, "If Fried's complaints in his blog post are 'defamatory', what exactly are all the consumer complaints on Get Satisfaction's site, then?"

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#137

Post by Semiapies » Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 3:22 PM UTC

shiranaihito wrote: post #131

Thor Muller 31 Mar 09 Gosh, we messed up on the wording of that badge and are changing it pronto. The wording on that badge was actually intended to explicitly state that the space was NOT OFFICIALLY SANCTIONED by the company, but that doesn’t come off at all. According to this DoucheWeasel, GS tried to say that their page about 37signals is not sanctioned/approved by 37signals, but failed. Instead they ended up impl…

The GS guys are doing an amazing combination of groveling and passive-aggressive whining about being caught at the same time.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#138

Post by Semiapies » Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 3:43 PM UTC

Thor Muller posts an open letter to Jason Fried:

http://blog.getsatisfaction.com/2009/03/31/open-letter-to-ja...

...and negates 95% of the "he should have been nicer about it" complaints about the original post by saying "And while I would have preferred you sending us a note, or even posting it somewhere less trafficked than your popular blog, the fact is that Get Satisfaction is a huge proponent of public airing of grievances. You were right to bring it to our attention any way you saw fit."

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#139

Post by Semiapies » Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 3:46 PM UTC

Raphael_Amiard wrote: post #129

swombat wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does it affect me? First of all, you also run a start-up, so it affects you because they might turn on you next, for some slight misunderstanding. Secondly, it affects you as a customer, because people who act immaturely rarely do so in a single area. They might treat you, as a customer, with a similar level of immaturity, if you tick them off.

You walk on a very thin rope here. I don't at all buy the 'slight misunderstanding' thing concerning the case they had. The damage to 37signals image could have been very real. Even if it wasn't done purposedly. What is more important is, i don't get why you see 37signals as the porentially harmful actor here. If i had a startup i would be very happy that 37signals did the job to stop this company to potentially harm…

Personally, I'm struck by the premise that Get Satisfaction, of all people, are being wronged by people publicly airing real, acknowledged grievances against them.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#140

Post by Semiapies » Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 4:13 PM UTC

enzoenoch wrote: post #117

mechanical_fish wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Loud public fuss is usually a reasonable backup plan if asking them to change doesn't work. You still haven't grasped the problem. I'm sure that 37signals could easily have used quiet channels to remove the offending pages, messages, and marketing copy on GetSatisfaction. But that would not have reached me . Up until three hours ago I was wandering through the world, with a faint memory of the time that I followed a…

You knowing that that support page solves the problem for you but not for 37 Signals, or for GetSatisfaction. And that's the problem with airing dirty laundry in public. It would have been much better for Jason to reach out to Lane and talk to them about this first, as this approach makes creates adversity. It is called etiquette-- it is also called allowing your opponent a way out. A cornered opponent always fights…

"And that's the problem with airing dirty laundry in public."

That's GS's mission, of course.

"Fortunately for Jason, the GetSatisfaction folks are obsessed with listening and responding."

No. Fortunately for GS, 37S started off with a public complaint and GS chose to respond quickly. "Cornered" or not, GS really had nothing to stand on if they'd opted to leave things untouched and 37S had taken the legal route.

They're not scrambling to make "customers" happy, they're scrambling to avoid a company with deep pockets and a bored legal team from noticing this little story, going to GS, and seeing "My Litigious Company's Customer Support Page".