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Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

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Re: Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

#131

Post by ghusto »

jnovek wrote: post #75
ahtihn wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many people can't afford to have kids Wrong. Poor people have 0 problems having kids. People can afford kids, they don't want to compromise on lifestyle.

You’re making a value statement in a discussion about factual information. Regardless of whether you think avoiding children for economic reasons is good or bad, it’s the leading reason cited by people who choose to delay having children. Regardless of whether it’s perception or real, that is the problem the needs to be solved if you want people to have kids.

Does it matter that "it's the leading reason cited" if it's further questioning shows it not to be true?

I've heard it many many times from many different people, and not once has it been the actual reason.

Re: Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

#132

Post by [deleted] »

jespinel wrote: post #104
bigballsbjorn wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

almost always the case especially in germany where you are already incentivised with super low income taxes, free kindergarten and a shit load of other payments from the goverment. its basically impossible to be poor enough not to afford children unless you are doing it intentionally.

Super low income taxes? The general income tax brackets break down in Germany is as follows: - Up to €12,348: 0% (Tax-free allowance) - €12,349 – €69,878: 14% to 42% (Progressive increase) - €69,879 – €277,825: 42% (Proportional rate) - Over €277,826: 45% (Reichensteuer or "rich tax") Source: https://www.expatrio.com/about-germany/german-tax-system IMO: that doesn't look "super low". A better tax system is the one us…

[deleted]

Re: Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

#133

Post by ghusto »

matchbok3 wrote: post #39

This is a challenging topic to discuss because (rightly) it's very personal. Sadly the fact of the matter is this: we need more children and young people to keep society functioning (and continually improve our quality of life). There is no other known way. So unfortunately the "free rider" problem needs to be addressed somehow. Of course, the "cruel" part is how it affects those who either can't have children, are g…

> Of course, the "cruel" part is how it affects those who either can't have children, are gay, etc.

Adoption. At least that was the choice one of the gay couples I know made.

Re: Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

#134

Post by ghusto »

qurren wrote: post #66
matchbok3 wrote: post #39

This is a challenging topic to discuss because (rightly) it's very personal. Sadly the fact of the matter is this: we need more children and young people to keep society functioning (and continually improve our quality of life). There is no other known way. So unfortunately the "free rider" problem needs to be addressed somehow. Of course, the "cruel" part is how it affects those who either can't have children, are g…

If you want to incentivize people to have kids, hand out $500K-1M to anyone who wants to have kids. Don't penalize those who don't. And yes, kids cost that much. I'm a senior level software engineer in the bay area. I don't have kids. I don't think I can afford them. I'm tired of people telling me I can afford them. The world works differently today. In the 1980's, if you had a stable job that let you leave at 5pm, y…

> Today, leaving at 5pm means risking PIP and not having an income;

This is Germany, not the USA. Shit doesn't work like that here.

Re: Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

#135

Post by Ekaros »

pibaker wrote: post #117

I am increasingly of the opinion that you can either be eligible to vote, or collect pension, but not both at the same time. By the time you start collecting pension, you have effectively ousted yourself from economic production. And unlike a 20yo still in college and not contributing to the economy yet, you don't have 50 more years of your life to worry about. This effectively means it is safe for you to support any…

[dead]

Re: Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

#136

Post by qurren »

pibaker wrote: post #117

I am increasingly of the opinion that you can either be eligible to vote, or collect pension, but not both at the same time. By the time you start collecting pension, you have effectively ousted yourself from economic production. And unlike a 20yo still in college and not contributing to the economy yet, you don't have 50 more years of your life to worry about. This effectively means it is safe for you to support any…

> By the time you start collecting pension, you have effectively ousted yourself

I disagree. The vast majority of jobs are difficult to work at old age and with medical conditions that typically come with old age. As long as we value keeping people alive for their natural lifespan (I hope we do), then our base assumption needs to be that we every time we pay someone we need to pay them $1 for now and $1 for their retirement. Approximately 1:1 because the actually-productive working age is ~25-65 and the retirement age is ~65-105.

Investment returns are never guaranteed, and shouldn't be factored into that.

We're hiring people here, not robots.

Re: Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

#137

Post by turtlesdown11 »

matchbok3 wrote: post #103
turtlesdown11 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

right, its the phones and computers driving the high cost of raising a human being for 18 years + /s

It... literally is? How much money did families spend on computers and phones in 1980? The snarky nonsense is not helpful, or appropriate, for this forum. Do better.

> It... literally is?

It.... literally isn't? the cost of computers are lower today (in today's dollars) than they were in the 1980s and 1990s?

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2021/09/20/cost-of-a-computer...

Re: Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

#138

Post by joquarky »

pibaker wrote: post #117

I am increasingly of the opinion that you can either be eligible to vote, or collect pension, but not both at the same time. By the time you start collecting pension, you have effectively ousted yourself from economic production. And unlike a 20yo still in college and not contributing to the economy yet, you don't have 50 more years of your life to worry about. This effectively means it is safe for you to support any…

In the US at least, it is also facilitated by a legislature that is older than color TV.

Re: Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

#139

Post by soco »

spwa4 wrote: post #113
7bit wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The approach is completely backwards. You incentivise having kids, not punish those who do not have kids or worse, those who can't get kids.

You forget the problem that's being solved here. It's not how to incentivize having kids. It's how to increase taxes while reducing pensions. Increasing the obligations of everyone currently working while decreasing what the state provides at the same time. The full details are: this is an additional 2.5% non-progressive income tax, two thirds paid by employers, one third by employees. Other "currently proposed" chan…

And why wouldn't the elderly need to keep working longer? They did benefit from all the new medical stuff extending their active lives, so how about giving back by working a few years more? It's also their own decision to have less children, thus less workers, and also they generally don't want more immigrants, so there - it's either more work, or magic. And we don't know how to do magic.

Re: Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

#140

Post by joquarky »

necro wrote: post #33
outside2344 wrote: post #21

So the plan is to make the cost of living even more expensive for people without kids? Do they understand the problem in the first place? Many people can't afford to have kids.

I think the thinking is that if you had kids you created future cows for the tax plantation so you contributed more to the country.

Its like growing a crop.

Except the farmer demands you grow while stomping all over you, and then reserves the fertilizer for the dying crops.

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