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Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

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Re: Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

#131

Post by keybored »

jlarocco wrote: post #129
Tyrubias wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a cold-hearted way to think about it. The countless people who will suffer are not the ones causing the problem. The problem is caused by the billionaires willing to sacrifice human life and the environment for profit. They actively sow climate skepticism and encourage defunding of climate research to protect their bottom line. When extreme weather events kill millions, those billionaires will be safe in thei…

It's easier to blame climate change on a conspiracy theory around billionaires then it is to stop driving so much and reduce consumption.

> conspiracy theory

What is the name for the theory that the most fantastically wealthy do not rule society? No kind adjectives come to mind.

Re: Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

#132

Post by jmward01 »

spwa4 wrote: post #116
jmward01 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many of those 'could maybe happen' are, in fact, happening right now. The researcher is also quoted as saying 'more likely than not' which is pretty big when it comes to something like the AMOC shutting down. This really is catastrophic and really should be causing governments to take immediate, massive, steps to avert it including steps to sanction countries that are causing it.

The big consequence here is for the EU. And the only way to deal with this is for the EU to force US, India and China to seriously reduce energy use, and with that, their economy. This is not going to happen. The EU can't even convince itself to stop buying from China.

I don't think China needs convincing. They have likely already hit peak emissions and will start dropping, potentially rapidly, going forward. Europe is big. It just needs to move forward with purpose and things will happen. Getting that purpose is the hard part because world leaders have consistently said 'it will destroy our economy' and never actually tried. China, again, is showing that this isn't true. You can have both, a strong economy and a plan, backed by action, to decarbonize. Had Europe and the US had the forethought to actually invest in solar and batteries then they could be leading the energy transition and profiting, with literal profit meaning hard cash, right now by selling to the rest of the world. Instead the boogyman argument of 'it will destroy our economy' keeps rearing its head. I am absolutely done with that argument.

Re: Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

#133

Post by 9rx »

13415 wrote: post #120
9rx wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd have to ask the one who raised concern with this in the first place. What is apparent, though, is that "good or bad" is contrary to science. Science seeks to understand what is, not how you might feel about it. It is interesting that things went there.

So medicine is not a science because it's concerned with what's "good" and what's "bad" for someone's health? I find this kind of argument principally flawed. Many sciences are concerned with the consequences of human actions and it's hard if not impossible to describe these in meaningful ways without applying some criteria for what outcomes are good (desirable, positively evaluated) and what outcomes are bad (not de…

> So medicine is not a science because it's concerned with what's "good" and what's "bad" for someone's health?

It is concerned with understanding health. It is unable to decide what is "good" or "bad" as that is in the eye of the beholder. That is why medicine presents the options gleaned from the gained understanding, leaving the individual to decide for themselves what is "good" amid all the different tradeoffs. The universe has no fundamental concept of "good" or "bad". It is something humans make up. It is curious that someone who seems to have an interest in science doesn't realize that.

Re: Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

#134

Post by SoftTalker »

ericjmorey wrote: post #114
SoftTalker wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much agree. Nature will fix the climate, after it eliminates (a large number of) the humans that are causing the problem. That's really the only way.

The defeatist mindsets expressed in these comments seem more like a way to shed any sort of personal accountability for participating in a solution that doesn't kill billions of people than a reflection of reality. There are many solutions.

> There are many solutions.

There are, but none that will be accepted. Will you give up your car, your air condititioning, your AI agents, your uber eats, your year-round fresh produce at the supermarket, meat as a regular part of your diet, all the imported stuff you are accustomed to having?

Re: Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

#135

Post by Izkata »

bastawhiz wrote: post #113
postflopclarity wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the 50th headline they’ve read on how we’re screwed today that hasn’t happened the things are happening though. e.g. if you read a headline in the 70s that said something like "ski seasons will shorten by an average of 1 day per year, leading to only 5 inches of snow water equivalent in Colorado resorts by 2026, and eliminating the economic viability of skiing in the northeast by 2060" that would have been complete…

> the things are happening though. That's what the headlines said the last 49 times. Why should the average person care now ? What are they supposed to do? Al Gore got on a scissor lift and showed the hockey stick graph. Millions of people saw it. Then the data was bad. Then the average person didn't see anything happen that they could point to and be like "That's what Al Gore warned us about". What you're asking for…

It's like the climate people never heard the fable of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf". It's exactly that.

Re: Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

#136

Post by kocsonya »

cuu508 wrote: post #126
zurfer wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Techno optimist here who expects the following to make a big contribution to reducing human made future climate change: better batteries+solar/wind, nuclear fusion, self driving cars (we'll need to manufacture less cars for the same amount of miles humanity drives), AI helping with better resource allocation in general (hopefully). The answer can't be, let's just consume 10x less. We have to engineer our way out of i…

These awesome things will enable a higher human population. We are like a virus taking over the host organism and overdoing it.

Like cancer

Re: Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

#137

Post by Tyrubias »

howmayiannoyyou wrote: post #12
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #4

“Scientists” have been warning the world about this since Stommel issued his paper in 1961: https://tellusjournal.org/articles/10.3402/tellusa.v13i2.949... It’s going to shut down The ice caps and antartic ice are going to melt entirely The Gulf Stream is going to collapse Global emissions have skyrocketed with no brakes since then 1.5C target was a joke. 2.0 target is a joke. There is no world where humans can coord…

The archeological and geological records strongly suggest we've been down this road before. There's as much arrogance in assuming we can prevent this, as there is in assuming we caused it (perhaps hastened it). Best use of national or global resources is preparing for the outcome, not trying to prevent it.

This is incorrect. There’s no evidence global CO2 levels and average temperatures have ever increased this fast outside of mass extinctions. On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence we’ve caused the current conditions.

Studies of ratios of carbon isotopes in the atmosphere show that there has been a relative increase in carbon-12 and a relative decrease in carbon-13 and carbon-14 consistent with the burning of fossil fuels, which contains no carbon-14 due to radioactive decay and low levels of carbon-13 because plants preferentially fix carbon-12. Research the Suess effect for more information.

We’ve known since John Tyndall’s research in 1859 that CO2 is a greenhouse gas. Besides countless other studies since, we also have satellite evidence that the Earth is reemitting less infrared radiation at the exact wavelengths that CO2 absorbs. CO2 as the driver of a greenhouse effect is not in doubt either.

There is also plenty of observational evidence that the oceans now trap more heat, that nights are warming faster than days, that winters are warming faster than summers, and these are all consistent with models of anthropogenic climate change.

Re: Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

#138

Post by fatuna »

spwa4 wrote: post #116
jmward01 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many of those 'could maybe happen' are, in fact, happening right now. The researcher is also quoted as saying 'more likely than not' which is pretty big when it comes to something like the AMOC shutting down. This really is catastrophic and really should be causing governments to take immediate, massive, steps to avert it including steps to sanction countries that are causing it.

The big consequence here is for the EU. And the only way to deal with this is for the EU to force US, India and China to seriously reduce energy use, and with that, their economy. This is not going to happen. The EU can't even convince itself to stop buying from China.

While there is definitely a big consequence for the EU (and surrounding countries), the article mentions big impacts for the whole world. When it comes to climate, nobody is left untouched...

Re: Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

#139

Post by kjetijor »

spwa4 wrote: post #116
jmward01 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many of those 'could maybe happen' are, in fact, happening right now. The researcher is also quoted as saying 'more likely than not' which is pretty big when it comes to something like the AMOC shutting down. This really is catastrophic and really should be causing governments to take immediate, massive, steps to avert it including steps to sanction countries that are causing it.

The big consequence here is for the EU. And the only way to deal with this is for the EU to force US, India and China to seriously reduce energy use, and with that, their economy. This is not going to happen. The EU can't even convince itself to stop buying from China.

It seems naive to think this will only have big consequences for the EU, it'll be disastrous for everything around the Atlantic, and likely beyond.

Re: Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

#140

Post by jlarocco »

keybored wrote: post #131
jlarocco wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easier to blame climate change on a conspiracy theory around billionaires then it is to stop driving so much and reduce consumption.

> conspiracy theory What is the name for the theory that the most fantastically wealthy do not rule society? No kind adjectives come to mind.

At the end of the day it's unsustainable consumption of resources and increasing generation of waste that's killing the planet.

Even if the 4000 billionaires are ruling society, they're destroying the planet with the help of 8 billion poors.

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