Live data from Hacker News

Apple, Intel have reached preliminary chip-making deal

reuters.com

131–140 of 150 posts

Re: Apple, Intel have reached preliminary chip-making deal

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The performance with LNL is not apples-to-apples, like the comparison with Arrow Lake H. LNL has a much lower power consumption in the memory interface, like the Apple CPUs, which has nothing to do with the fabrication process. Also LNL is a lower performance CPU, for which it is normal to have better energy efficiency. Only the comparison between Panther Lake and Arrow Lake H, which have equivalent structures, can b…

On-package memory disproportionately affect idle power more than load power. The benchmark was done with Cinebench 2024 which is a heavy load test. Therefore, LNL's on package memory would have made little to no difference overall to perf/watt in Cinebench 2024 ST. Only the comparison between Panther Lake and Arrow Lake H, which have equivalent structures, can be used to compare the Intel 18A and the TSMC 3-nm fabric…

Panther Lake does not have new CPU cores.

The Panther Lake cores, i.e. Darkmont and Cougar Cove are the Arrow Lake/Lunar Lake cores, i.e. Skymont and Lion Cove, ported from the TSMC 3 nm to the Intel 18A fabrication process.

The Panther Lake cores have only minor changes, i.e. bug fixes and the addition of a new mechanism for interrupts and exceptions, FRED. A preliminary version of FRED is likely to have already been implemented on Arrow Lake/Lunar Lake, but if so it was disabled there after production.

In any case FRED will not cause improvements in the present benchmarks, as it is used only inside the operating system and the current operating systems are unlikely to have been updated to use it anyway.

In contradiction with what you say, ST performance or performance per watt cannot be used to compare fabrication processes but only the multithreaded performance can bu used for this purpose.

Single-thread performance is affected by a lot of factors that have nothing to do with the fabrication process, but all those have little or no influence on multithreaded performance.

The reason is that in any well optimized MT workload, the CPU runs at a constant power consumption. This eliminates the influence of all factors mentioned by you.

I have already explained in another comment that a constant power consumption means a constant number of gate switchings per second, which is determined by the energy required to switch a logical gate, which is a characteristic of a fabrication process.

When a given amount of work is done by a benchmark using the same algorithm, well-designed CPUs will need approximately the same number of gate switchings to complete the work, regardless of the number of cores included in a CPU.

Significant variations of the numbers of gate switchings can be caused only by architectural differences like the width of vector and matrix execution units. Smaller variations are caused by various quality characteristics of a CPU core design, like the frequencies of branch mispredictions and of cache misses, which should be similar for CPU design teams that do not differ much in competence.

When we compare equivalent cores in different fabrication processes, like Arrow Lake H vs. Panther Lake, the multithreaded benchmarks are almost unaffected by anything else except the fabrication process, assuming that the cooling systems are also equivalent.

Re: Apple, Intel have reached preliminary chip-making deal

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing about the number of machines in that article though. I could well see Intel buying the first ones of the new series as a PR coup. I mean obviously they are going to use them, too.

> Intel has secured all of ASML’s stock of High Numerical Aperture NA Extreme Ultraviolet (High NA EUV) chipmaking equipment due to be manufactured this year. https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/intel-acquires-as...

In 2024.

Anyways, it doesn't matter if it's high NA or low NA when it comes to capacity. What matters is how many total EUV machines and fabs. As of right now, a Google search says TSMC has 2x the number of fabs in construction as Intel.

Re: Apple, Intel have reached preliminary chip-making deal

#133
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically speaking, Bootcamp is an iBoot problem. Apple stopped shipping Macs with firmware UEFI which breaks 99% of generic OS installers out of the box. Microsoft is pretty justified not wanting to support that, versus UEFI on OG Bootcamp. The majority of Linux distros don't ship image support for iBoot either.

> Apple stopped shipping Macs with firmware UEFI which breaks 99% of generic OS installers out of the box. Did Apple ever support UEFI? I thought it was only ever EFI; no U.

Yes: https://support.apple.com/guide/security/uefi-firmware-secur...

In any case, EFI is still well-supported by OS installers. iBoot is not.

Re: Apple, Intel have reached preliminary chip-making deal

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple arguably are making AI workstations that can do inference and training by their Mac Studio and Macbook Pros to a lesser extent. The M6 generation is going to be interesting and before the memory pricing going up their products were competitive to the rest of the industry. Intel is still working with small and smaller process nodes.

Yes, I want Apple to focus on Mac inference. It could be the return of laptops/desktops as a major revenue source for Apple. Macs have been ~10% of Apple's revenue for the last 10 years or so. I'd love to see Macs get up to 20-30%. I do expect personal AI machines to take off in a few years once local models and local hardware hit an inflection point. M5 Max is a major improvement for local inference due to the added…

At any point in the last six years, Apple could have signed Nvidia's aarch64 BSD drivers and watched their revenue climb. It's a minuscule commitment that is fully supported by the higher-end Mac Pros, only disabled by software. That would have sent sales skyrocketing as far as the supply could handle it.

But Apple is about B2C, and customers buy services. All of us know, deep down, that Apple Intelligence will be a subscription service offered as part of Apple One. The Mac won't become the magical backbone for your personal inference network, it's a product used to consume Apple Services first and everything else comes second.

Re: Apple, Intel have reached preliminary chip-making deal

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t imagine Apple views fab technology as a potential differentiator worth the massive investment. This is about diversifying their supply chain as they have done all over the place for decades. Displays, for example.

That's why I wrote time will tell. The uncertainty of political order in the near term could make having fabs on their home turf as worth the security. Learn now, collaborate as preparation in case certain criteria politically, financially, are met.

TSMC fabs on home turf is just as good from a security point of view. But in reality for VLSI at this scale and volume it’s just single supplier in series with single supplier all the way down. You don’t really get security with such a vulnerable supply chain, regardless of ownership.

Re: Apple, Intel have reached preliminary chip-making deal

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the main processor: Apple Inc. has held exploratory discussions about using Intel Corp. and Samsung Electronics Co. to produce the main processors for its devices in the US, a move that would offer a secondary option beyond longtime partner Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. [0] (paywalled) They wouldn’t need either Intel or Samsung if it wasn’t bleeding edge. I think it’s 14A for Intel. TSMC is still have t…

What does “main” mean? Main processor for a flagship iPhone? Or main processor for a HomePod? There’s a lot of “main” processors for Apple’s devices at this point. I would be deeply skeptical of a brand new flagship iPhone Pro having an Intel fab’d SoC until at least a few years into this arrangement.

Also an “exploratory discussion” is not the same as a signed contract. Apple has tons of custom silicon now. There are many low risk ASICs Apple could kick the tires with.

Re: Apple, Intel have reached preliminary chip-making deal

#137
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nvidia’s chips aren’t usually on the latest nodes. The M5 is in N3P, Blackwell is N4P. M6 is expected to be on an N2 node while Rubin is N3P. I don’t think Nvidia even has an N2 chip announced, could be wrong through.

Nvidia’s chips aren’t usually on the latest nodes. Not yet. The primary reason is because most AI chips are full reticle sized which means the first year yields likely won't be very cost effective. It takes a new node a few years to fully mature in terms of yield. Little iPhone A series and server CPU chiplets are perfect for new nodes. That said, Nvidia will certainly try to move smaller and lower volume chips in fu…

Agreed on all counts. Apple’s hedge with Intel makes a ton of sense, especially if they continue to pay a premium for first dibs on a significant chunk of TSMC’s newest nodes.

So far Apple has been aggressive about stopping production of older processors, but as we see with MacBook Neo, even the lowest chips are increasingly overpowered for many users.

I expect even if Intel can’t match TSMC’s latest, they’ll be able to produce one or two generations behind at low cost and high volume. (I worked at Intel for 5 years or so, that phrase would have gotten me fired back then)

Re: Apple, Intel have reached preliminary chip-making deal

#138
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was about x64 being unable to keep up - independent of Intel’s Fab capabilities which have improved lately. But the big reason x64 couldn't keep up was that Intel's fab capabilities were horrible. Intel got stuck and couldn't get smaller nodes out and competing fabs caught up and left Intel in the dust. Apple was able to ship 22nm Intel processors in Summer 2012 while their iPhone processors were 32nm that Fall…

>> It was about x64 being unable to keep up - independent of Intel’s fab capabilities, which have improved lately. > But the big reason x64 couldn't keep up was that Intel's fab capabilities were horrible. Intel got stuck and couldn't get smaller nodes out, and competing fabs caught up and left Intel in the dust. It also was that Intel couldn’t execute reliably on their own roadmap, forcing Apple at the time to do ex…

> It also was that Intel couldn’t execute reliably on their own roadmap,

Intel kept putting out delusional roadmaps that would assume their 10nm fab process was going to be ready for mass production in just another quarter or two. They spent years refusing to plan for 10nm to not be ready, so all their new architectures were unshippable and they had to resort to just using copy and paste on their 2015 CPU cores. Their fab fuck-up was hardly the only mistake they made in that era, but it was the biggest underlying cause of their problems.

Re: Apple, Intel have reached preliminary chip-making deal

#139
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boot camp is a windows problem. This can be done today on apple silicon but Microsoft dosent want to go through the effort to support it.

I imagine it would be a big lift. Asahi linux is managing through reverse engineering the hardware support, without any official documentation. Even with official documentation it would be a significant change from other aarch64 hardware.

I'm curious why I would want to dual boot Windows when there's a perfectly good hypervisor and paravirtualization built into macOS?

Arm-based windows support via Parallels does work, but AFAICT there's no official way to buy a Windows license due to a Microsoft/Qualcomm partnership.

Re: Apple, Intel have reached preliminary chip-making deal

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On-package memory disproportionately affect idle power more than load power. The benchmark was done with Cinebench 2024 which is a heavy load test. Therefore, LNL's on package memory would have made little to no difference overall to perf/watt in Cinebench 2024 ST. Only the comparison between Panther Lake and Arrow Lake H, which have equivalent structures, can be used to compare the Intel 18A and the TSMC 3-nm fabric…

Panther Lake does not have new CPU cores. The Panther Lake cores, i.e. Darkmont and Cougar Cove are the Arrow Lake/Lunar Lake cores, i.e. Skymont and Lion Cove, ported from the TSMC 3 nm to the Intel 18A fabrication process. The Panther Lake cores have only minor changes, i.e. bug fixes and the addition of a new mechanism for interrupts and exceptions, FRED. A preliminary version of FRED is likely to have already bee…

  The reason is that in any well optimized MT workload, the CPU runs at a constant power consumption. This eliminates the influence of all factors mentioned by you.
This makes no sense because in ST perf/watt, we're normalizing watt already.
Post reply on HN