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An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

openttd.org

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Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#131

Post by bombcar »

sho_hn wrote: post #35
yellowapple wrote: post #28

In situations like this it's odd to me that the rightsholder wouldn't just sell an official build of the FOSS reimplementation with the assets (legally) included. If some of the proceeds end up going toward the FOSS reimplementation's donations then it seems like an easy win-win.

There are actually cases this has happened in (e.g. re-releases using ScummVM under the hood; id basing products on community source ports, etc.), but it's not always that simple. Chris Sawyer as creator for example is known to have particular opinions on this as I recall, and if you e.g. look over to film making there's also a hot debate over preserving original artistic intent and original creations over later rema…

Another example is Heroes III with VCMI and HotA and other similar things. Some are attempts to do a bug-for-bug "vanilla" recreation, others expand on it in defined ways, still others add new features "in the spirit" of the original.

When you get to the last, you can definitely see how the original creator/artists could disagree.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#132

Post by zem »

bombcar wrote: post #126
aeturnum wrote: post #70

I don't have much to add except to say that I think this is a stand-out example of how companies and preservationists should work together and not against each other. The childish folks who are upset about this aren't familiar with the realties of either open source games perseveration nor the realities of being an IP holder. This is as close as we have gotten to the Good Place. I wish Atari luck on the re-release an…

I think it's interesting to look at your opinion (not you particularly, but everyone) and see if it would have been different if instead of "Atari" it was "Chris Sawyer". If it would have been, then there's probably an inconsistency somewhere.

I don't think it's inconsistent to think that a person's right to their IP is worthy of respect but a faceless corporation's isn't. you can disagree, but it's not an inconsistency.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#133

Post by AndrewDucker »

blizdiddy wrote: post #114
maybewhenthesun wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in a sane copyright structure You are not wrong. But alas we don't have that. ANd in the reality we live in this collaboration is way better than the alternative.

We know what the law is… the law is bullshit. Is it easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism?

What you can imagine has very little to bear on what they can get away with without being legally shut down.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#134

Post by Lammy »

singpolyma3 wrote: post #77
charcircuit wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without knowing the rev share it could be exploitative. If OpenTDD is being sold commercially Atari shouldn't be taking all the money from all the hard work that people have put into the project over the years.

It's clearly exploitative

Agreed. Effectively-nobody would be interested in buying it if it weren't for OpenTTD and all the improvements they've made over the years.

It's absurd that some company can buy up and profit from thirty-year-old formerly-abandonware, and that society have been collectively browbeaten into believing in the notion of “““intellectual property””” at all.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#135

Post by Lammy »

AndrewDucker wrote: post #130
Lammy wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who gives a shit? It's from 1995 and nu-Atari had nothing to do with it.

Copyright from 1995 has not expired.

And now we have looped back around to my original comment. I'll give you a moment to scroll up and read it again.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#136

Post by einr »

gmueckl wrote: post #122
JoshTriplett wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reverse engineering for compatibility, and implementation of a compatible system (as long as you don't copy the original) are not just legal, they're explicitly legally protected in many jurisdictions. You'll get in serious trouble if you copy the original, but there is specific case law supporting things like emulators. See, for instance, Sony v Connectix and Sega v Accolade.

But OpenTTD is explicitly a faithful copy of the original. It replicates the original product in appearance and behavior and is open about it. If you were to dig into source code history, mailing list archives, chat logs etc. I'm certain that you could find a lot of evidence to support this position.

GNU’s Not Unix is explicitly a faithful copy of UNIX. It replicates the original product in appearance and behavior and is open about it.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#137

Post by bombcar »

zem wrote: post #132
bombcar wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's interesting to look at your opinion (not you particularly, but everyone) and see if it would have been different if instead of "Atari" it was "Chris Sawyer". If it would have been, then there's probably an inconsistency somewhere.

I don't think it's inconsistent to think that a person's right to their IP is worthy of respect but a faceless corporation's isn't. you can disagree, but it's not an inconsistency.

It is somewhat, because you then have to say you respect their right to the IP, but don't respect their ability to sell said right.

You can make that argument, but you need to actually do so and not just leave it unsaid.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#138

Post by passivegains »

blizdiddy wrote: post #114
maybewhenthesun wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in a sane copyright structure You are not wrong. But alas we don't have that. ANd in the reality we live in this collaboration is way better than the alternative.

We know what the law is… the law is bullshit. Is it easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism?

I mean, yeah. There's enough nukes locked and loaded around the globe to end human civilization as we know it in minutes. Nobody's made a bomb that can fix socioeconomics.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#139

Post by AuthAuth »

superxpro12 wrote: post #106
aeturnum wrote: post #70

I don't have much to add except to say that I think this is a stand-out example of how companies and preservationists should work together and not against each other. The childish folks who are upset about this aren't familiar with the realties of either open source games perseveration nor the realities of being an IP holder. This is as close as we have gotten to the Good Place. I wish Atari luck on the re-release an…

This is about as much as you can hope for tbh. More than a fair compromise. Society has become quite 'entitled' to 'free' things. As popular as they are, torrents and free streams and emulation and clones of games in an open source lib are all stealing something. I know thats an unpopular thing to say but it a fact. Now, those rights violations viewed in a larger context may change one's opinion on the whole, and I'm…

Are they really stealing it though? They only brought the IP 30 years later they didnt make it or put any work towards it. The openTTD community has easily done 100x the work to extend the game.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#140

Post by Cthulhu_ »

WarcrimeActual wrote: post #100
JoshTriplett wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Thing is, they own it. No, they don't. They own the game data, and the original game engine. They don't own the reimplemented Open Source game engine. OpenTTD did not have to do anything here. It sounds like they had a very positive interaction with Atari, in which Atari is providing them with some support and collaboration, and in exchange for that, OpenTTD agreed to formalize the requirement for "you need to own…

They do own it. Any court would likely agree that what OpenTTD does is copy an IP they own. And they'd have the right to C&D it.

It's... complicated; they own Transport Tycoon Deluxe, its code, its assets and its IP.

Back when OpenTTD first released, it was a decompile (?) of TTD that loaded the assets of the game itself. This was... legally dubious, since reverse engineering.

But over time they Ship of Theseus'd the game - all code rewritten from assembly to C/C++ (I don't know), open source asset packs, etc. It's still the same base game, same feel, etc but nothing of the original code or assets remain.

I don't know enough about IP law etc to judge whether Atari would have any leg to stand on in a court of law, but it would be Complicated to say the least.

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