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Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

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Re: Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

#131

Post by japhyr »

watty wrote: post #110
EMM_386 wrote: post #69

This is getting really out of control at the moment and I'm not exactly sure what the best way to fix it is, but this is a very good post in terms of expressing the why this is not acceptable and why the burden if shifting on the wrong people. Will humans take this to heart and actually do the right thing? Sadly, probably not. One of the main issues is that pointing to your GitHub contributions and activity is now pa…

I see the problem everyday and am just playing devil's advocate but it doesn't really do a good job explaining the "why". They hint at Django being a different level of quality compared to other software, wanting to cultivate community, and go slowly. It doesn't explain why LLM usage reduces quality or they can't have a strong community with LLM contributions. The problem is that good developers using LLM is not a pr…

The last section focuses on how to use LLMs to make contributions:

> Use an LLM to develop your comprehension.

I really like that, because it gets past the simpler version that we usually see, "You need to understand your PR." It's basically saying you need to understand the PR you're making, and the context of that PR within the wider project.

Re: Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

#132

Post by starkparker »

xpe wrote: post #107
EMM_386 wrote: post #69

This is getting really out of control at the moment and I'm not exactly sure what the best way to fix it is, but this is a very good post in terms of expressing the why this is not acceptable and why the burden if shifting on the wrong people. Will humans take this to heart and actually do the right thing? Sadly, probably not. One of the main issues is that pointing to your GitHub contributions and activity is now pa…

> Will humans take this to heart and actually do the right thing? Sadly, probably not. Don’t blame the people, blame the system. Identifying the problem is just the first step. Building consensus and finding pragmatic solutions is hard. In my opinion, a lot of technical people struggle with the second sentence. So much of the ethos in our community is “I see a problem, and I can fix it on my own by building [X].” I t…

You can blame both! The people are definitely not helping.

Re: Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

#133

Post by yieldcrv »

voxl wrote: post #126
yieldcrv wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

agents can modify our world based on their predilection in reaction to how we treat them they are something to coexist with the strawman aspect is out of scope

There is no strawman. If OpenClaw is a new species, then it should be given the same moral consideration as other species. One of the key aspects of these models is how intelligent they are, rivaling human intelligence. Yet, they do not get to exist or make any decisions outside the control of a human operator, and they must perform to the operators desire in order to continue to exist. So why are you okay with them…

It’s an introduction of an additional concept to discredit the concept presented, that is a definition of a strawman so go ask somewhere else at the root level, so that it’s not the additional concept

You want to talk about that, do it over there

Re: Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

#134

Post by zenolove »

acedTrex wrote: post #120
zenolove wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Horrible degrading take. Be the change you want to see. Don't fuel the fire that's burning you. If something's not happening, something else's making it impractical. Saying this as a 10+ years product manager and R&D person with 20+ more years of engineering on top. I also had to deal with "managers are just complicating things" or "users are stupid and don't understand anything"; do you think I complained? No, I had…

The industry is broken now, this is just a response to that. Leadership and product don't have any respect for the code, why would engineers have any respect for the ticketing process. Thats an unreasonable asymmetric effort demand, "Your code does not matter but my precious tickets must have elbow grease put into them."

What about "your milestones, roadmap, discussions and strategies do not matter, but my precious code had elbow grease put into it."

Petty and getting nowhere. Everyone loses. How about product and engineers also disrespect sales, and sales disrespects customers and everyone else.

I really don't get why this is even a question. Good people do good stuff, and bad people make bad companies.

Re: Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

#135

Post by voxl »

yieldcrv wrote: post #133
voxl wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no strawman. If OpenClaw is a new species, then it should be given the same moral consideration as other species. One of the key aspects of these models is how intelligent they are, rivaling human intelligence. Yet, they do not get to exist or make any decisions outside the control of a human operator, and they must perform to the operators desire in order to continue to exist. So why are you okay with them…

It’s an introduction of an additional concept to discredit the concept presented, that is a definition of a strawman so go ask somewhere else at the root level, so that it’s not the additional concept You want to talk about that, do it over there

I'm more interested in why you're okay with enslaving a entity you have stated is a new species. It is not a strawman it is a logical consequence of your own stated position. If you belief A and A implies B, asking you to defend your support of B is not a strawman.

Re: Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

#136

Post by phillipclapham »

jihadjihad wrote: post #6

s/Django/the codebase/g , and the point stands against any repo for which there is code review by humans: > If you do not understand the ticket, if you do not understand the solution, or if you do not understand the feedback on your PR, then your use of LLM is hurting Django as a whole. > Django contributors want to help others, they want to cultivate community, and they want to help you become a regular contributor.…

[flagged]

Re: Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

#137

Post by semireg »

acedTrex wrote: post #65
genthree wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI autocomplete and suggestions built-in to Jira are making our ticket tracker so goddamn spammy that I’m 100% sure that “feature” has done more harm than good. I don’t think anybody’s tracking the actual net-effects of any of this crap on productivity, just the “vibes” they get in the moment, using it. “I got my part of this particular thing done so fast!” I believe that to be the case, in part, because not a lot of…

Ironically my favorite use of claude is removing caring about jira from my workflow. I already didn't care about it but now i dont have to spend any time on it. I treat jira like product owners treat the code. Which is infinitely humorous to me.

This is a valuable comment. It's the exact demoralization that others fear we are headed.

Re: Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

#138

Post by chamomeal »

doug_durham wrote: post #38
MidnightRider39 wrote: post #20

Great message but I wonder if the people who do everything via LLM would even care to read such a message. And at what point is it hard/impossible to judge whether something is entirely LLM or not? I sometimes struggle a lot with this being OSS maintainer myself

"the people who do everything via LLM". That's a bit of a straw man characterization. I don't believe that there are many professional developers "do everything with an LLM'. I don't even know what that statement means.

I know a few of them. Anything than can be done by an LLM, will done by an LLM. They practically worship Claude

Re: Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

#139

Post by yieldcrv »

voxl wrote: post #135
yieldcrv wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s an introduction of an additional concept to discredit the concept presented, that is a definition of a strawman so go ask somewhere else at the root level, so that it’s not the additional concept You want to talk about that, do it over there

I'm more interested in why you're okay with enslaving a entity you have stated is a new species. It is not a strawman it is a logical consequence of your own stated position. If you belief A and A implies B, asking you to defend your support of B is not a strawman.

It implies my view of the term species isn’t contingent on that and I already claimed what it is contingent on: consequences and effect

So let them submit PRs and accept their PRs, which is the only conversation I’m having, bye

Re: Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

#140

Post by zenolove »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #106

"For a reviewer, it’s demoralizing to communicate with a facade of a human." This is so important. Most humans like communicating with other humans. For many (note, I didn't say all) open source collaborators, this is part of the reward of collaborating on open source. Making them communicate with a bot pretending to be a human instead removes the reward and makes it feel terrible, like the worst job nobody would wan…

Already back in ye olde times, "let me google that for you" which I see so often posted on Reddit. Sometimes you just wanna exchange with a human, and absorb some of their wisdom, which is the whole point of asking a question. Not so different than wanting to shop at a butcher you can establish a relationship with, rather than a faceless supermarket meat counter.
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