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Judge finalizes order for Greenpeace to pay $345M in ND oil pipeline case

northdakotamonitor.com

131–140 of 245 posts

Re: Judge finalizes order for Greenpeace to pay $345M in ND oil pipeline case

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

J&J tried it but was ultimately rejected last year.

Somewhat different circumstances. Summarizing Matt Levine's various columns on the issue from memory: 1. J&J lost a lawsuit about talc and the winner was awarded $Xb (or maybe $XXXm, my memory is fuzzy) in damages. 2. J&J transferred $XXb to a new company. 3. It let the new company take on current and future liabilities for judgements on the talc issue. 4. J&J then had the new company declare bankruptcy. The bankrupt…

I'm not sure what you mean. I think we are saying the same thing. The strategy to use Texas Two Step failed in 2025 and J&J gave up, and now they are going back to the regular way of resolving the litigation.

Re: Judge finalizes order for Greenpeace to pay $345M in ND oil pipeline case

#132

For context, a statement from the legal experts who monitored the trial. > It is our collective assessment that the jury verdict against Greenpeace in North Dakota reflects a deeply flawed trial with multiple due process violations that denied Greenpeace the ability to present anything close to a full defense. https://www.trialmonitors.org/statement-of-independent-trial...

Greenpeace should just do a Texas Two Step. Works for heavy industry.

Re: Judge finalizes order for Greenpeace to pay $345M in ND oil pipeline case

#133

> Greenpeace maintains it only had six employees visit the protest camps, and that all worked for Greenpeace USA, not Greenpeace Fund or Greenpeace International. > The jury found Greenpeace USA liable for almost all claims. how does this happen? did greenepeace just run a bad trial? or lose all public trust?

> Greenpeace USA, not Greenpeace Fund or Greenpeace International Why is something like this allowed to exist... Stacking entities and funneling wealth around in the guise of a noble cause.

You know that 99% of companies with revenues above say $1B do exactly this, just in the guise of often less noble causes?

Fun fact, Monster Cables owns no patents or IP (or effectively none), it just licenses them all from the "wholly independent, arms-length" Monster Cables Bermuda, Inc. entity.

Re: Judge finalizes order for Greenpeace to pay $345M in ND oil pipeline case

#134
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s specifically illegal under bankruptcy law. It’s called fraudulent transfer.

Yet large companies appear to get away with it all the time - for example the so called Texas two step. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_two-step_bankruptcy In my view the best way to get this sort of stuff banned is to start using it yourself.

Yup. It's "weird" that all of these companies claim that "swear to god, we fully intend to honor our obligations", then all of them use this one law firm who specializes in doing exactly the opposite and "oops, look what happened, we have no more legal obligation, that belongs now to this other entity that we said we'd fund but ... somehow ... didn't. Or certainly not anywhere near where we said we would."

But there are definitely apologists and deniers of it, even right here on HN. Or "you don't know that's what's going to happen, we owe it to them to wait and see", even as you watch the exact same law firm guide another company through the exact same process in the exact same way, but somehow, maybe, this time, it'll have a different outcome.

Re: Judge finalizes order for Greenpeace to pay $345M in ND oil pipeline case

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oil companies have been suppressing climate change research for decades to keep cooking the earth for profits. Is that not corruption? I suppose if you are economically exposed to these gains, don’t believe in climate change, and/or won’t be here for the bad times from this, the facts may not matter to your mental model. The facts remain that climate change is real and oil companies are doing their best to extract ev…

You know, it's possible for these oil companies to have done all this bad stuff, and for Greenpeace to be a pretty shitty organization. And for the person to have a different mindset than all the strawman assumptions you just made.

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Re: Judge finalizes order for Greenpeace to pay $345M in ND oil pipeline case

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also for the ND pipeline, I think it does relatively little to change the economics of fossil fuels. This is ignoring the issue of tribal sovereignty and water rights which is where most of the issue lies imo. No one is trying to ruin the economy, they simply want untainted natural resources on their own property. If this pipeline was going through disneyland, i don't think you'd hear popular arguments about disney t…

This is a complete load of shit. Oil is trucked back and forth over those roads all day and night, and that has a much higher leakage rate than a pipeline. NIMBYs never come out and say they just don't want something built. They always have some bullshit excuse like this.

I mean what you just said is the huge load of shit. There are interesting differences in risk and pollution between trucking and piping, but they’re not nearly as black and white as you claim and they don’t require acrimony. Calm the hell down?

Re: Judge finalizes order for Greenpeace to pay $345M in ND oil pipeline case

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

J&J tried it but was ultimately rejected last year.

Somewhat different circumstances. Summarizing Matt Levine's various columns on the issue from memory: 1. J&J lost a lawsuit about talc and the winner was awarded $Xb (or maybe $XXXm, my memory is fuzzy) in damages. 2. J&J transferred $XXb to a new company. 3. It let the new company take on current and future liabilities for judgements on the talc issue. 4. J&J then had the new company declare bankruptcy. The bankrupt…

Nah, Matt Levine is an absolute Texas Two Step apologist, something that made me lose a lot of respect for him.

He repeatedly contorts himself into pretzels trying to defend it (why?) and into equal pretzels avoiding exploring the two elephants in the rule:

1. He (and those involved) claim that the process is "actually, truly, intended to be solely for the benefit of the plaintiffs suing us", and that defendants are doing them a favor, going out of their way to spin off these entities that are flimsy houses of cards.

2. Is it just a coincidence that of the firms who've gone through the Texas Two Step process, that they've managed to get away with not having to pay ninety per cent of court-ordered liabilities, and in at least one case, ninety-eight per cent?

Why on earth would these companies bend over backwards to do something that they claim has zero benefit for them, and is only truly intended to help streamline and optimize plaintiff's efforts in suing them?

Why is it even called the Texas Two Step? Is it because:

1. it assists claimants and plaintiffs (their adversaries) to bond together and present one solid unified case against you, or...

2. because it assists them to elegantly dance around their liabilities?

Levine and the firms and companies he's carrying water for insist the name has nothing to do with the second point.

In the JJ case, Levine's apologism of "they weren't bankrupt enough, yet" is horseshit.

JJCI was funded to the tune of $2B. Slightly less than the $61.5B of liability, you'll agree.

After the bankruptcy was rejected, the Judge had said that the bankruptcy might be necessary at some point in the future, but "now wasn't the time".

JJCI re-filed bankruptcy proceedings three hours later.

All these apologists are taking the piss.

Re: Judge finalizes order for Greenpeace to pay $345M in ND oil pipeline case

#138

For context, a statement from the legal experts who monitored the trial. > It is our collective assessment that the jury verdict against Greenpeace in North Dakota reflects a deeply flawed trial with multiple due process violations that denied Greenpeace the ability to present anything close to a full defense. https://www.trialmonitors.org/statement-of-independent-trial...

And a statement from legal experts monitoring this group https://pastebin.com/EEsEXbcz

Apparently, according to this source, trial monitors.org is a fake organization. There is some evidence that this is a credible accusation.

Re: Judge finalizes order for Greenpeace to pay $345M in ND oil pipeline case

#139

For context, a statement from the legal experts who monitored the trial. > It is our collective assessment that the jury verdict against Greenpeace in North Dakota reflects a deeply flawed trial with multiple due process violations that denied Greenpeace the ability to present anything close to a full defense. https://www.trialmonitors.org/statement-of-independent-trial...

As an outsider, why is this a credible institution over the jury and judge?

In America, just about anything is more cridble than our "justice" system.

Re: Judge finalizes order for Greenpeace to pay $345M in ND oil pipeline case

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oil companies have been suppressing climate change research for decades to keep cooking the earth for profits. Is that not corruption? I suppose if you are economically exposed to these gains, don’t believe in climate change, and/or won’t be here for the bad times from this, the facts may not matter to your mental model. The facts remain that climate change is real and oil companies are doing their best to extract ev…

You know, it's possible for these oil companies to have done all this bad stuff, and for Greenpeace to be a pretty shitty organization. And for the person to have a different mindset than all the strawman assumptions you just made.

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