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My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

sashachapin.substack.com

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Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#131

Post by hexbin010 »

porjo wrote: post #109

Related: "just be yourself" is horrible advice, on its own, to give a young person. It must be accompanied by an understanding that there is a social game to learn to play, and that "being yourself" is not always compatible with playing the game well.

Right with you there! All this discourse about 'being you', be anyone you want to be, 'you do you' etc – christ, no! Not unless you understand the downsides to all of that. And they aren't trivial.

People should not dish out that advice so carelessly and wantenly.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#132

Post by AndrewKemendo »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #126
Aurornis wrote: post #47

This post wasn't what I was expecting from the "socially normal" title. While there is a lot of self-reflection and growth in this piece, a lot of the points felt more like learning how to charm, manipulate, and game social interactions. Look at the first two subheadings: > 1: Connecting with people is about being a dazzling person > 2: Connecting with people is about playing their game The post felt like a rollercoa…

They call that too: > There are two reactions that one could have to the previous section. “Wow, that’s cool, how he developed the ability to create a lot of deep connections in this lonely world.” And: “that is a weird and creepy thing to want, sounds kind of vampiric.” I believe that both reactions are correct in some proportion. > Here is the thing about going around the world in a state of emotional openness and…

It’s the root of secure attachment and clear boundaries something missing in the majority of the world unfortunately

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#133

Post by otikik »

ozim wrote: post #103
nkrisc wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The post felt like a rollercoaster between using tricks to charm and manipulate, and periods of genuinely trying to learn how to be friends with people. That’s all the same thing. What is being friends with people other than essentially manipulating them into liking you by being likable and a good friend? What’s important is why you’re doing it.

I think big distinction is “doing it on purpose, in a thought out manner” vs “just being who you are and people falling into friendship with you”. Doing it on purpose - even if you don’t have bad intentions - still feels selfish, you make them like you for your own benefit first and foremost as you want them to be your friends.

If I didn't do it on purpose, I will never do it, with anyone, including my own family. It does not happen "automatically" for me. I have to be mindful about it. "Force" myself to do it. Do it "on purpose".

Your proposed course of action would leave me with no friends or relationships.

To me, the phrase "relationships take effort" - means literally that. Because every single interaction takes effort.

Perhaps this is one of those "introvert vs extrovert" things.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#134

Post by Thossndjsj »

SirMaster wrote: post #27

Why do we need to be normal anyway? Why can't we just be unique?

Most people from what I've seen don't want unique as much as they want somewhat famailiar. If it deviates too far away from that then they are repulsed, and I can give you an example right here.

I'm going to commit suicide. I've known this for the last 15 years. It'll probably be another 10 years before I'll die, but I know my end is half laying down with a 1.5 inch nylon strap tied cinched on my neck and a tree trunk in the dead of night so that no one will be able to find me in time. The reason I haven't is because I'm taking of elderly relatives, but they are the only reason I'm still here.

That's the real me. The one that looks forward to dying even though there doesn't seem to be any reason why I want to die.

I wonder how many in this thread would be utterly horrified by this vs accepting of this.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#135

Post by legerdemain »

The weird vibe people are picking up from this essay is because half the phases are about customer service.

As in, the author was working as a waiter or a coach at the time.

A waiter's job is to keep your butt in the seat, get you to order some stuff, and then leave a tip. The waiter may or may not give a shit about you as a person, but it's secondary to their job. That simulation is the creepy vibe.

I've probably never eaten at the kinds of stratospherically high-end restaurants the author writes about. I've eaten at restaurants with Michelin stars. I've never had a waiter flirt with me, daydream with me, or offer ad hoc therapy. And if I ever do, I suspect I might find the charade off-putting.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#137

Post by lazide »

micromacrofoot wrote: post #113
lazide wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manipulation vs influence is about intent and degree of peoples ability to reject it. If someone is influencing (actually) other folks can take it or leave it, and someone is willing to own it - because it’s something they actually believe. Manipulation is non optional, and if rejected causes attacks of various forms because people are doing it not because they believe it/it will help the ‘target’, but because they a…

The goal of influence is often manipulation... we see it all the time with "influencers" trying to illegally advertise to people by not disclosing sponsorships People influencing others are trying to manipulate their emotions or thoughts into feeling a certain way about something... We can look to the definitions themselves... influence: the capacity to have an effect on the character, development, or behavior of som…

I think you might want to re-read all of this again.

Manipulation is non-consensual and controlling influence, yes. That part is important.

Just like the difference between a house and a jail is essentially if you are being forced to be there against your will or not.

They both are structures people live in and that provide a degree of structure and protection, but one is generally considered okay or even good, and the other is considered pretty bad and terrible. Largely because one you can choose or do things to change, the other you get stuck in against your will and the environment is outside your control.

Most ‘influencers’ also cross pretty strongly into manipulation many times, so using the title is about as accurate as ‘Democratic Peoples Republic of z’.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#138

Post by tibbar »

This resonates. I spent many years going hard at `5: Connection is about projecting love and acceptance`. I focused on providing unconditional acceptance to everyone I met, inviting them to share their burdens and listening empathetically and supportively. People often left our conversations thanking me for the "therapy session."

And in many ways I think this was a positive energy to bring to the world! But eventually I realized that, deep down, I was doing this out of anxiety. I wanted to be accepted and this was a crutch I was using to achieve that. In fact, I was scared of not providing this level of support, because what if I was too aloof and the other person got mad at me? And since people often liked this quality about me, what would I become without it?

Now I mostly focus on ... relaxing. There are times where intense-therapy-like energy will be useful, and I can provide that if I want. But most of the time it's just not necessary. Unlike the author, I don't necessarily have the ability, or practice, to skillfully provide whatever the person in front of me actually wants, but that's ok too. It's ok to just be calm.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#139

Post by legerdemain »

smeej wrote: post #129
donatj wrote: post #52

> The other day, someone told me, “I can’t imagine you ever being awkward with people.” I was telling my therapist of several years recently about being uncomfortable with the number of new people I've had to meet recently. He seemed surprised that I wasn't excited by it all and said something along the lines of "You seem like a very social person, that seems out of character." It struck me… am I really that good at…

The best small talkers say very little. We just ask interested questions about what you've already said. An easy cold opener at parties is, "So how do you know the host?" Then inquire about whether they're still doing that thing, or how long ago it was, or where they did it, whether they learned any cool things--the point is to keep asking questions. Most people love talking about themselves and things they like to d…

You might think so, but a lot of people can tell when you're ELIZA-ing them to death, and they will learn to avoid you.

There are a lot of people on HN who want a technical manual for how to party, and a lot of them keep telling each other that the art of conversation is about attentive listening. Can you imagine a conversation between two people practicing attentive listening on each other?

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#140

Post by switchbak »

jamilton wrote: post #130
collingreen wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes we find it distasteful to have things we're fully aware of explicitly spelled out. A trite quip here is "nobody wants to see how the sausage is made".

Yeah. I wonder why that is - is it because it highlights a conflict between our actions and values? If left unexamined, it's a non-issue, so having it spelled out feels like a problem being created?

I would much rather assume the people I'm interacting with are honest and conveying their real feelings, vs playing some (probably) Machiavellian game with N levels of dishonesty and manipulation from what could easily be a malevolent person at the core. At least that tends to be the assumption when you pick up on a lack of authenticity in this way.

When you have a real indication of dealing with a master manipulator, it's very understandable that you should use an abundance of caution. That's probably an instinct in us at this level.

Of course everyone is at least a little aware that they're putting on a bit of a ruse with their public persona, but that needs to be tethered to some level of authenticity or you'll just be sending out Patrick Bateman vibes.

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