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Germany to ban Huawei from future 6G network

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Re: Germany to ban Huawei from future 6G network

#131

Post by cpursley »

jquery wrote: post #101
ta12653421 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is what most WEIRD people do not understand: (Western-Educated-Industrial-Rich-Democratic) - by today it looks like that the Chinese system may proof to be more "performant" on most/several (all?) levels. Its hard to accept for libertarian minds, i guess. Once here on HN someone wrote like: "democratic systems seems to be too slow to adapt in world changing at our current speed". China did some vey wise decision…

I agree that our system (America’s, specifically) is too slow, but it’s not inherent to democracy, it’s the fact we only have elections every few years, because these rules were written in the 1700s when holding an election / voting in an election was difficult. No snap elections when the government is about to shut down (would’ve prevented all the nonsense of the last month and a half). This isn’t cope. China has vi…

It's difficult to export culture when the receiving cultures don't speak the language, don't share religion, etc. US has a big benefit of being part of the Anglophone world going back to it's founding and more recently with Western European dominance from WW2 where basically everyone there knows some level of English. Also, don't forget China has suffered from great "humiliation" for the last few hundred years and hasn't been in much of a position to export much of anything until recently. Furthermore, the main reason the US has absorbed some SK and Japanese cultural things is we brought them into our neoempire.

Re: Germany to ban Huawei from future 6G network

#132

Post by LtdJorge »

amaccuish wrote: post #105
fodmap wrote: post #30

On the other hand Spain is using Huawei servers for almost all of their sensitive data. I wonder how the UE, and NATO, will react to that, because they're using Huawei for Social Security data, wiretapping data (SITEL), or even Intelligence Services data. https://therecord.media/spain-awards-contracts-huawei-intell...

I get why you do so, but the European Union is always shortened to EU, not UE. It would be as if I wrote a sentence, "The EWG was created by the treaty of Rome in 1957". What is EWG? Oh yes its the German abbreviation for the EEC. But we're writing in English?

“I think you meant EU instead of UE" sounds much less passive-aggressive.

Re: Germany to ban Huawei from future 6G network

#133

Post by Retric »

rzerowan wrote: post #129
CMay wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need a crazy fast connection for most of this automation stuff, because it has to be able to operate offline successfully to start with. Any dark factory should be running on its own wireless network anyway, not some cellular network. Who would do that? Even for a local wireless network, why would a Huawei router be any better? To me, this was never about 5G or 6G. This was always about CCP controlled netwo…

To steelman some of the points youve posted >You don't need a crazy fast connection for most of this automation stuff, because it has to be able to operate offline successfully to start with As i mentioned youre looking at it as a consumer, this is industrial systems.Its not about speed primarily but latency - costs of deployment and maintainance.Your COTS router is not being installed wher million dollar assembly li…

If you want to steel man the argument it’s worth acknowledging that China is also concerned with backdoors in what they import.

> allegations of a future scenario

There’s been plenty of CCP aligned hacking, backdoors, and industrial espionage people can point to. Expecting a bad actor to continue there behavior is a little more than allegations of a future scenario.

Re: Germany to ban Huawei from future 6G network

#134

Post by CMay »

rzerowan wrote: post #129
CMay wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need a crazy fast connection for most of this automation stuff, because it has to be able to operate offline successfully to start with. Any dark factory should be running on its own wireless network anyway, not some cellular network. Who would do that? Even for a local wireless network, why would a Huawei router be any better? To me, this was never about 5G or 6G. This was always about CCP controlled netwo…

To steelman some of the points youve posted >You don't need a crazy fast connection for most of this automation stuff, because it has to be able to operate offline successfully to start with As i mentioned youre looking at it as a consumer, this is industrial systems.Its not about speed primarily but latency - costs of deployment and maintainance.Your COTS router is not being installed wher million dollar assembly li…

The dollar value of the assembly lines isn't as important as the scale and architecture of the information that has to move.

I could see scenarios where there is a high level of variability on the line and it requires a very large machine learning model to process the many possible variations, so maybe you send a realtime video feed or still images to a server and try to optimize for the fastest response time rather than paying to run all that compute at each station. Maybe you're doing this for 5000 stations.

You can also imagine small instructions needing to arrive with very low latency where bandwidth isn't the issue really and straight line of sight wireless should presumably be the lowest latency.

Neither of those problems require or justify Huawei anything and those are not likely to be most factories.

> Its a question of leveraging future infrstructure for productivity and improving living standards. As for espionage and hacking that was stillthere even with dialup modems and fax machines.

You don't improve the lives of future generations in your country by letting an adversary control your infrastructure. That is easy. Why would you even consider that? There's a list of priorities. You aren't starting at the top.

> Regarding countries using their leverage via multicorps abroad

No doubt, people should always push back against any companies proven to be doing things that are problematic. It doesn't only apply to countries. Still, I restate my point about trust. A lot of these companies (and countries) legitimately care about their reputations, not only because a destroyed reputation can hurt their profits (if you believe that's all they care about, which is very cynical), but because many people would rather do the right thing than the wrong thing if given the choice.

Sometimes these organizations are so big, they don't even know all the details about what's happening at the ground level until it gets reported on by 3rd parties.

In terms of US government influence over networks, the US government is structured very differently. In the US, it's a national tradition to not excessively trust the government, because the history of the world says that's a bad idea. If the US abuses its trust to a critical degree, it can face pushback in a real way that isn't even allowed in China. I believe in the feedback mechanism loop within the US more than what China has, by far.

Your argument comes across very empty to me in this regard.

Re: Germany to ban Huawei from future 6G network

#135

Post by nguyenkien »

hiimkeks wrote: post #43
anonporridge wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should they? The United States honors international IP law and doesn't cheat its way into threatening domestic production of other countries like China does.

https://archive.is/tDC0W https://archive.is/IQyBG and this was before the US elected an overt fascist

archive.is down. Perhaps you mean archive.today

Re: Germany to ban Huawei from future 6G network

#136

Post by bulbar »

croes wrote: post #32
lazyeye wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our leaders in the West have been very naive. Also the Chinese "elite capture" program has been very effective.

You mean old we-don’t-care-bout-human-and-environmental-rights trick? Let’s face it, nobody would care if China just would be a subordinate receiver of orders. As soon they became a competitor there was a problem

Nobody would care if China were a democracy or at least not actively threatening Taiwan.

Re: Germany to ban Huawei from future 6G network

#137

Post by Libidinalecon »

cpursley wrote: post #131
jquery wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that our system (America’s, specifically) is too slow, but it’s not inherent to democracy, it’s the fact we only have elections every few years, because these rules were written in the 1700s when holding an election / voting in an election was difficult. No snap elections when the government is about to shut down (would’ve prevented all the nonsense of the last month and a half). This isn’t cope. China has vi…

It's difficult to export culture when the receiving cultures don't speak the language, don't share religion, etc. US has a big benefit of being part of the Anglophone world going back to it's founding and more recently with Western European dominance from WW2 where basically everyone there knows some level of English. Also, don't forget China has suffered from great "humiliation" for the last few hundred years and ha…

It is also the way we keep score in America.

Kids in America are hopelessly addicted to Tiktok but that doesn't count as a cultural export.

Most the items in people's homes are made in China but that doesn't count either.

Chinese rappers could be dominating the pop charts and we would just say rap was invented in America so that doesn't count.

All the American kids could be learning to play the guzheng and we would just say we invented a new American style of playing the guzheng, doesn't count.

Re: Germany to ban Huawei from future 6G network

#138

Post by rando001111 »

like_any_other wrote: post #103
croes wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean old we-don’t-care-bout-human-and-environmental-rights trick? Let’s face it, nobody would care if China just would be a subordinate receiver of orders. As soon they became a competitor there was a problem

> As soon they became a competitor there was a problem Was there? It seems to me trade and offshoring continued even after they became a competitor. And then continued after they strong-armed Western corporations to invest in China [1], destroyed Western corporations through espionage [2,3], or through subsidy-enabled dumping prices and preferential treatment [4,4.1], after they extracted groveling apologies from Wes…

the west made a deal with the devil for cheap plastic trinkets and reaped what it sowed. that's why switching the manufacturing to India won't do any good either.

domestic production or nothing. the "service economy" is a stupid concept.

Re: Germany to ban Huawei from future 6G network

#139

Post by CMay »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #128
CMay wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China bet on EVs because of national security. China has less reliable access to oil than many other countries and the US can choke off delivery of oil to China through bottlenecks if it comes to war. Investing in solar, wind and nuclear makes sense in their predicament. "Green energy" and "saving the planet" are secondary and mostly marketing by comparison. Countries hitting their industrialization stride have a blo…

It isn't just the US, Russia has oil and shares a land border with China. However, Russia isn't always friendly with China, nor is the middle east, and anyways, it just seems like a headache to deal with them + the petro dollar when they have plenty of energy to tap at home. Air pollution was also a huge problem, aside from national security. China's empahsis on STEM and the fact that they've been a huge source of en…

It's true that Russia and China share a border, but the infrastructure to move oil across it at large scale barely exists and I got the impression the geology is very unfavorable for it. It's probably easier to ship it, but future pipeline expansions may still happen.

The whole Belt and Road initiative seemed to mimic a Korean style labor export to increase the inflows of currency into the country while keeping people employed, but I also kind of figured it was aimed at reducing the friction of future resource transportation between the countries.

Re: Germany to ban Huawei from future 6G network

#140

Post by exasperaited »

exasperaited wrote: post #122
jabron wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does this even mean?

What it means is that in the future Europe will have to consider a Trumpist USA to be like a 21st Century version of a totalitarian Eastern Bloc or Soviet country: Orbanism, absurd projectionism, dangerous allies, the state demanding a share of businesses and directing sales and mergers, openly describing the EU (and now the UK) as not friends or even as enemies, trumped up prosecutions of political enemies, assuming…

*protectionism
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