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Plain – a web framework for building products with Python

plainframework.com

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Re: Plain – a web framework for building products with Python

#131

Post by coffeefirst »

danpalmer wrote: post #10

> Plain is a fork of Django Why. This makes me sad. Plain looks great, but Django's strength is its maturity and amazing, enduring community built on contributions from thousands. Forking it will at best split contributions and mean infrequent merges, and at worst means Plain users lose out on Django improvements and Django users lose out on Plain patches. It seems like Plain could be just a set of Django packages kn…

Yes. This is a bad idea.

A better way to do this is as a cookiecutter template. Go ahead and include everything you need as INSTALLED_APPS. Auth is pluggable, middleware is configurable, his support module is a classic use case for a pluggable app... Include pytest and Python-Allauth with sane defaults.

I'm struggling to see anything that wouldn't work better—benefiting from all the good work in the Jazzband universe and automatically getting the upstream security upgrades—without a fork.

Re: Plain – a web framework for building products with Python

#132

Post by [deleted] »

danpalmer wrote: post #10

> Plain is a fork of Django Why. This makes me sad. Plain looks great, but Django's strength is its maturity and amazing, enduring community built on contributions from thousands. Forking it will at best split contributions and mean infrequent merges, and at worst means Plain users lose out on Django improvements and Django users lose out on Plain patches. It seems like Plain could be just a set of Django packages kn…

[deleted]

Re: Plain – a web framework for building products with Python

#134

Post by [deleted] »

phowat wrote: post #11

I really don't understand why every time a big project is forked People are so upset. IMO, one of the great things about open source software is that a fork is possible. Maybe it will go nowhere, maybe some good ideas will be fed back to Django, maybe it will become the new standard. Most of the time , we will end up with better software overall.

[deleted]

Re: Plain – a web framework for building products with Python

#135

Post by halfcat »

brokegrammer wrote: post #48
danpalmer wrote: post #10

> Plain is a fork of Django Why. This makes me sad. Plain looks great, but Django's strength is its maturity and amazing, enduring community built on contributions from thousands. Forking it will at best split contributions and mean infrequent merges, and at worst means Plain users lose out on Django improvements and Django users lose out on Plain patches. It seems like Plain could be just a set of Django packages kn…

I'm a Django user and I'm happy to see a fork because while Django is mature, it's also stagnating because the project isn't able to break things by introducing new features. I don't think Plain will replace Django anytime soon but it might help guide decisions. Plain being backed by a for-profit company is also great because projects like Django could use more marketing. Vercel figured this out a long time ago.

Weird to see “it’s like Vercel” as a virtue.

The times for-profit dev tooling has worked, it’s almost always when the profit is a means to providing value (e.g. Jetbrains), but that’s very rare.

For profit is generally a stronger signal of an impending rug pull than longevity.

Re: Plain – a web framework for building products with Python

#136

Post by beaugunderson »

askonomm wrote: post #125

First thing that I don't like is the settings being strings that reference classes. Usually that means that go-to definition does not work (I've seen similar things in Symfony with YAML use). If the config needs to reference a class, or some object, I would like to be able to easily navigate to it as opposed to having to manually search the project for it. If this was an actual object reference as opposed to a string…

> First thing that I don't like is the settings being strings that reference classes.

Those classes can reference the settings, so including them as strings is done to allow that to work without creating circular imports.

Re: Plain – a web framework for building products with Python

#137

Post by jimmydoe »

miiiiiike wrote: post #109
simonw wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jacob Kaplan-Moss gave a great talk at the last DjangoCon about money - what Django would do with an increased budget and how to get there: https://jacobian.org/2024/oct/8/dsf-one-million/ Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nS1SSuHk9I

I just setup a $83/month ~$1,000/year recurring donation. https://www.djangoproject.com/fundraising/ if anyone else depends on Django.

thanks for sharing this, just donated too.

I read thru Plain's doc, it is not bad at all, but I really hope Django can be much better than it is now.

Re: Plain – a web framework for building products with Python

#138

Post by grahameb »

miiiiiike wrote: post #78

Related, "Django's REST (Framework) Problem" — https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43510495 I'm not sure that many people who rely on Django Rest Framework are aware that last month the bug tracker was made private and the project is looking for new maintainers. I love Django but the project needs to go through something similar to Angular's renaissance (and Angular needs to learn from Django docs.) I'd love to help…

Yep – I've been using Django since 2007. The big win used to be the admin, ORM, database migrations... but now oddly enough a lot of that has become a pain. I'm someone who knocks small solutions together for fun or to scratch and itch, so I'm looking for low maintenance. The problem I need solved has shifted and now Django is too much boilerplate (APIs and models are perhaps too distant as concepts), and too much maintenance work. Auth is perhaps underemphasised as an area for improvement. The built in auth isn't really fit for purpose anymore, and the various extensions for federation / passkeys take work to integrate and change a lot.

None of this is to write off Django or the people who've worked on it: I'm genuinely grateful for the framework. It's let me build open source things that help people out. The typical problems most of us standing up small-to-medium solutions need solved by a backend have just shifted underneath the framework, and it hasn't had the resourcing to keep up.

I've been looking at Pocketbase as a replacement. I think I'd prefer something that uses Postgres rather than sqlite, but it's pretty awesome as a solution for those two or three day projects, and the maintenance burden looks like it's pretty low on an ongoing basis.

Re: Plain – a web framework for building products with Python

#140

Post by mdaniel »

askonomm wrote: post #125

First thing that I don't like is the settings being strings that reference classes. Usually that means that go-to definition does not work (I've seen similar things in Symfony with YAML use). If the config needs to reference a class, or some object, I would like to be able to easily navigate to it as opposed to having to manually search the project for it. If this was an actual object reference as opposed to a string…

There are strings in Python already that reference classes: type annotations. PyCharm knows how to populate, warn, and navigate to the "interior" types there

I can't think of any reason why it couldn't be taught to behave similarly for a config file. You can do it today field by field via language injection but if there are a lot of them then I think the config file would need a JSON Schema with the x-intellij-language annotations on the relevant fields https://sourcegraph.com/github.com/JetBrains/intellij-commun...

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