131–140 of 144 posts
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Canada does a relatively good job integrating Muslims.
That is not a refutation, though. Canada is fairly selective when it comes to immigrants. Europe receives whomever the people smugglers can get across the water, and the demographic difference in parameters such as literacy or sympathy to radical versions of Islam is absolutely vast.
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All the usuals: drugs, cost of living, unemployment, inequality, radicalization, etc. Immigration is one of many.
Sweden had these issues before migration, yet not the same disastrous societal result.
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Saying that all immigrants behave the same across the world is like saying all groups of people are the same. The failure of Syrian, Afghan, and Iraqi immigrants to integrate into Swedish culture is well documented. They exist almost as a separate society within Sweden now, unlike immigrants in Texas. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/28/sweden-records... >In a national address on Thursday night, the prime m…
> unlike immigrants in Texas. Would successful integration be like in Texas where most Anglos have little knowledge of Tejano culture? Or perhaps you mean the Anglo immigrants who moved to Mexican Texas and promised to follow Mexican law and become Catholic but after they gained power they declared independence as a pro-slavery country, then after economic failure decided to join a neighboring country? The Amish are…
>The impulse behind it is a sense of helplessness over a long-term rise in violent crime. Ten years ago Sweden, with 10m people, had one of the lowest rates of gun violence and murder in Europe. It now has one of the highest, averaging a shooting a day. In 2022, 62 people were shot dead; last year it was 53.
The Amish are not shooting people or forming violent gangs, comparing the two is not really a good example. In fact your comparison makes the point that the real reason for the problem in Sweden is the culture of the immigrants and not just the fact that they are immigrants or live as a separate society.
The Amish are deeply non-violent, and have no problem existing alongside the rest of the country. The same is not true in Sweden.
>Or perhaps you mean the Anglo immigrants
It wasn't colonized by only people of Anglo-Saxon origin, but people from all over Europe including Eastern Europe.
But yes, Texas was created in the same way that Mexico itself was created and that almost every other nation was created.
I think almost every Swede would consider it to be a bad thing if the same thing happened in Sweden.
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To stay on-topic and on-source: "[Gang violence] is concentrated in highly segregated immigrant neighbourhoods. In Husby, a suburb of Stockholm, more than 80% of the population are migrants or the children of migrants, most of them from Iraq, Somalia, Syria and Turkey." https://www.economist.com/europe/2020/11/28/why-sweden-strug... Do you have a counter-factual source showing that immigrants are not more violent in…
I don't. I did find a publication from the Swedish government about this: https://www.government.se/articles/2017/02/facts-about-migra... They say people with 2-foreign born parents are overrepresented in the statistics of crime suspects. Does that translate to guilty of crimes? Maybe, but I would place money that racism and discrimination especially in more homogenous societies plays a part. People generally are ave…
With that logic, I don't know what sort of statistic could even convince you.
As an aside, one uses prosecution (instead of guilty verdicts) simply because the statistics for prosecution are available.
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> unlike immigrants in Texas. Would successful integration be like in Texas where most Anglos have little knowledge of Tejano culture? Or perhaps you mean the Anglo immigrants who moved to Mexican Texas and promised to follow Mexican law and become Catholic but after they gained power they declared independence as a pro-slavery country, then after economic failure decided to join a neighboring country? The Amish are…
From the article: >The impulse behind it is a sense of helplessness over a long-term rise in violent crime. Ten years ago Sweden, with 10m people, had one of the lowest rates of gun violence and murder in Europe. It now has one of the highest, averaging a shooting a day. In 2022, 62 people were shot dead; last year it was 53. The Amish are not shooting people or forming violent gangs, comparing the two is not really…
I was asking you to explain what appropriate integration would mean when you write 'They exist almost as a separate society within Sweden now, unlike immigrants in Texas.'
We know there there are multiple almost separate societies in Texas, so if that's your touchstone, I don't understand it.
Brownsville, at 94% Hispanic, is a lot different from Galveston.
Regarding 'deeply non-violent', I urge you to consider that pacifism is not the same as non-violent. For example, "The Amish Keep to Themselves. And They’re Hiding a Horrifying Secret" / "A year of reporting—an exclusive partnership between Cosmo and Type Investigations—reveals a culture of incest, rape, and abuse." at https://www.typeinvestigations.org/investigation/2020/01/14/... .
Sexual violence is violence, yes?
As for "have no problem existing" I refer you to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Amish_sentiment . "Non-Amish hooligans may try to force Amish horses and buggies off the road, throw firecrackers at the horses of Amish people, throw stones at Amish people, or otherwise engage in acts of petty vandalism, harassment, and violence." Plenty of problems, like https://amishamerica.com/why-are-amish-targeted-for-harrassm... .
So, what does successful integration look like to you, in the Texas context?
> by only people of Anglo-Saxon origin
Since we were talking about Texas, I was using the localized term, which https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo#United_States correctly describes as "In many parts of the United States, especially those with high Latino populations, the term "Anglo" is applied to white Americans who are not of Latino origin. ... a synonym for non-Latino whites; that is European Americans, most of whom speak the English language, even those who are not necessarily of English or British descent."
I don't think you know enough about Texas to make substantive comparisons about societal integration.
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the two things are both true. mass immigration is causing problems and elites are using as a distraction to push through right-wing economic reforms
Just because two things cause problems, that doesn't mean they are equally problematic. Like, it took over a year to build the new storm sewer system in town. It caused problems, like having blocked off roads and sidewalks and construction noise. Yet I wouldn't equate that to the systemic problems in the rail system caused by privatization while also over-funding the road network.
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From the article: >The impulse behind it is a sense of helplessness over a long-term rise in violent crime. Ten years ago Sweden, with 10m people, had one of the lowest rates of gun violence and murder in Europe. It now has one of the highest, averaging a shooting a day. In 2022, 62 people were shot dead; last year it was 53. The Amish are not shooting people or forming violent gangs, comparing the two is not really…
> comparing the two is not really a good example I was asking you to explain what appropriate integration would mean when you write 'They exist almost as a separate society within Sweden now, unlike immigrants in Texas.' We know there there are multiple almost separate societies in Texas, so if that's your touchstone, I don't understand it. Brownsville, at 94% Hispanic, is a lot different from Galveston. Regarding 'd…
You can define sexual violence in a lot of ways, it's a pretty loose term, I know there are some people who would consider non-consensual arm touching or strong language to be sexual violence. Most people will say that sexual violence and straight up murder via guns and knives are different things though.
I'm not saying that the Amish don't have crime or any problems, but that article doesn't have data to show that the rate of sexual violence in the Amish community is higher than in secular communities or other religious communities like Hasidic Jews or Buddhists. Let's not even attempt to talk about sexual violence in the Syrian, Afgan, or Iraqi immigrant communities in Europe.
Honestly just look at real crime statistics for different communities, including the Amish, the data speaks for itself.
typeinvestigations is a partisan publication, I would not cite their investigative reporting for the same reasons I wouldn't cite Fox News. They are more likely to be motivated by racial hatred of white people than they are to actually be seeking the truth.
WRT Anti-Amish sentiment, yeah that's pretty messed up! tbh your arguments just seem to be making more of a case AGAINST multiculturalism, I'm not sure if that's your intent. This shows that even in the case of a completely nonviolent, insular community, harassment and hatred towards an out-group is inevitable. So why the heck do Swedish politicians think it's a good idea to allow a community of people with a very different culture and who DONT have a strong belief in pacifism to live in their country without integrating?
From that wikipedia article:
>Due to the Amish belief in pacifism, Amish victims of these crimes rarely retaliate.[4]
Sorta makes my point about the Amish community.
>So, what does successful integration look like to you, in the Texas context?
Comparing border towns with the rest of the state is a little unfair as people living there are very likely to be people with strong ties to Mexico (i.e. they physically go to Mexico often) and the least likely to assimilate. If Sweden shared a border with Syria then it would be a little more understandable for people living on the border to keep close ties with Syrian culture. Even just a little ways away from the border towns though Texas towns are much better integrated and similar to the rest of Texas and the US.
Texas border towns are undeniably MORE integrated than the case we're talking about in Sweden though. I was in Brownsville a few weeks ago and it's still pretty much America: everyone speaks English and it's taught in schools, the people still are pretty much American.
So to answer your question: I would expect the Syrian case to be at least more integrated than what it is, something more like a normal Texas town that's not on the border. e.g. Kingsville. High proportion of ethnically Latino people but still very much American in culture.
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> comparing the two is not really a good example I was asking you to explain what appropriate integration would mean when you write 'They exist almost as a separate society within Sweden now, unlike immigrants in Texas.' We know there there are multiple almost separate societies in Texas, so if that's your touchstone, I don't understand it. Brownsville, at 94% Hispanic, is a lot different from Galveston. Regarding 'd…
>Sexual violence is violence, yes? You can define sexual violence in a lot of ways, it's a pretty loose term, I know there are some people who would consider non-consensual arm touching or strong language to be sexual violence. Most people will say that sexual violence and straight up murder via guns and knives are different things though. I'm not saying that the Amish don't have crime or any problems, but that artic…
Nor do I believe that's your point. It was a caution that pacifism isn't the same as not being violent.
Many Americans, Amish included, consider physical violence against children as part of proper childrearing, while Sweden is famous for being the first country to ban it.
So no, don't equate pacifism with not being violent.
And I asked elsewhere here, "Are there really no forms of violence which are concentrated in highly segregated ethnic Swedish neighborhoods?"
> and the least likely to assimilate
I infer you haven't heard the phrase "we didn't cross the border, the border crossed us." Some of those Tejanos came from families which were in Texas before its succession in the name of slavery.
New Mexico has families who speak Spanish at home and who can trace their local ancestry back to the 1600s.
So if you think you can explain away Brownsville as being a border town, then look to Santa Fe and ask what "assimilation" really means.
> everyone speaks English and it's taught in schools
How does knowing English reveal the level of integration?
As the Wikipedia page points out, the Amish "maintain a degree of separation from surrounding populations, and hold their faith in common, the Amish have been described by certain scholars as an ethnoreligious group, combining features of an ethnicity and a Christian denomination", and "Most Old Order Amish, New Order Amish and the Old Beachy Amish speak Pennsylvania Dutch".
Yet it also says "almost all Amish are functionally bilingual in Pennsylvania Dutch and English."
> the people still are pretty much American.
I think we have very different lenses. Of course they are Americans.
Tejanos, Amish, the Diné, Native Hawaiians, Puerto Ricans, Haredi Jews in New York, most Tlingit, the Gullah, and Cajuns are all pretty much American.
Tell me again what you think assimilation and integration should look like?
For that matter, I grew up in Miami. Half my schoolmates were Cuban immigrants, or children thereof. Most of these immigrants were refugees. The first generation struggles, and tends to stay with others like them. The second generation is bilingual, and able to navigate both cultures.
Like, I wanted to go on a date with a girl but her Cuban-born parents wanted me to come over first so they could grant permission. I had to bring my Spanish-speaking father as a translator because the girl's parents didn't speak English well enough and I didn't speak Spanish well enough. You really could lead a normal life in parts of Miami speaking only Spanish. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_migration_to_Miami tells me that over half the county now has Cuban origin.
So don't you go tell me they weren't American, or go thinking that the US is some sort of uniform society. That dog won't hunt.
Are Sweden Finns, who speak Finnish as their mother tongue, or the Samí, not Swedish?
Based on my experience, Syrian refugees to Sweden haven't been there for long enough for the integration you want, just like the Cuban refugees around me when I was a kid.
I assume all the Syrian kids are learning Swedish in school, just like my Spanish-speaking classmates learned English at school. (Or is the Swedish education system worse than the Miami one of the 1970s and 1980s?)
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So it's Sweden's own people's fault for not wanting to do "integration"? Do you believe the average Swede wanted mass immigration in the first place?
I don't think any Swede wanted conditions in Syria to get so bad that mass numbers of people felt they needed to leave their homes, friends, and livelihood in order to survive, so no, I don't think Swedes wanted this mass immigration. But it happened. So what next, kill them all? Starve them in concentration camps? Isolate them on islands with no hope at all of integration or work? If only there were some way to unit…
Why?
> Isolate them on islands...
Why not? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Jumeirah / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_(archipelago) , otherwise Malaysia and Indonesia come to mind.
> ...in concentration camps?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mina,_Saudi_Arabia Or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Line,_Saudi_Arabia ?
In other words: why should what happened in Islamistan not stay in Islamistan? (cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummah )
Let them fuck themselves. As they always do. No need for 'the (non-islamic) world' to support that.
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If you take men from the dark ages and drop them into a deeply secular and free society you are asking for problems. It took Europe a century to leave Christianity behind.
I think we have different ideas of what it means to leave Christianity behind. The Church of Sweden was the state church until 2000. I think the monarch is still required to be Lutheran. The Evangelical-Lutheran Church in Denmark is the state church of Denmark. The King of Norway was the head of the Church of Norway until 2012, and "separation ... remains incomplete" quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway . Spa…
This is the essence of secularism, take it, or leave it, we don't really care that much.
That is not the case in all these Goatfuckistans.
It may have been the case in Turkiye for a time, in theory, but not so much anymore (in practice) with Muslimbrotherhood Erdolf.