Portugal just ran on 100% renewables for six days in a row • Hacker News Board

Re: Portugal just ran on 100% renewables for six days in a row

#131

Post by realusername » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 7:37 AM UTC

natmaka wrote: post #121

adev_ wrote: post #75

Meaningwhile, today 17/11/2023 the same Portugal is back to the normal and emitting 170g CO2/kwh [1][2] - This is 6.8x the emissions of Sweden (25g) running on Nuclear and Hydro - This is 4.1x the emissions of France (41g) running on Nuclear, Hydro and Gas - This is 2.8x the emissions of Switzerland (59g) running on Nuclear and Hydro But still much better than "Green" Germany that reaches 647g CO2/kwh.... with 22GW o…

This is a work in progress, their transition isn't done yet. Without nuclear no risks tied to a major accident, dependancy towards uranium providers, hot waste disposal, overcentralization, overcentralization, proliferation, daunting building and decommission projects... ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38288706 ) Not a bad deal.

Yeah no risk of a major accident ... apart from climate change you know.

If Germany could at least reach the 90s levels of France, that's why I would consider that some work in progress already

Re: Portugal just ran on 100% renewables for six days in a row

#132

Post by mcjiggerlog » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 7:38 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #56

tambourine_man wrote: post #22

This is good news people. We’re just not very used to them anymore. Scaling to 365 days and 8 billion people is harder than 10 million and 6 days. But it’s a nice step in the right direction.

A very large percentage of the world is already on 100% renewables, they simply don't have grid power. Their footprint is a fraction of the wealthy remainder.

Who do you think is using renewable power that is not connected to a grid? Poor off-grid communities are pretty much exclusively burning fossil fuels or biomass for primary energy, which are most certainly not carbon-neutral or good for the environment.

Re: Portugal just ran on 100% renewables for six days in a row

#133

Post by troupo » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 7:41 AM UTC

ajross wrote: post #66

gustavus wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course if they had a nuclear base they wouldn't even need the natural gas plants.

Nuclear is emphatically not an instant-on hot backup. Plants take time to spool up, and very importantly time to cool down. Fukushima happened because you can't just turn a reactor off, it produces energy that has to go somewhere while the intermediate fission products decay over hours-to-days.

> Nuclear is emphatically not an instant-on hot backup. Plants take time to spool up, and very importantly time to cool down

All modern nuclear plants work in load following mode with ability to change ant the rate of 3-5% of their rated capacity per minute.

Graph and text on page 8: https://www.oecd-nea.org/upload/docs/application/pdf/2021-12...

> Fukushima happened because you can't just turn a reactor off,

Fukushima happened because the plant was hit with both an earthquake and a flood significantly exceeding its operational parameters (already extremely high)

Re: Portugal just ran on 100% renewables for six days in a row

#134

Post by Scarblac » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 7:42 AM UTC

troupo wrote: post #125

natmaka wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a work in progress, their transition isn't done yet. Without nuclear no risks tied to a major accident, dependancy towards uranium providers, hot waste disposal, overcentralization, overcentralization, proliferation, daunting building and decommission projects... ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38288706 ) Not a bad deal.

> This is a work in progress, their transition isn't done yet. When will it be done? What really is the answer to the challenge? Germany has ~140 GW of installed renewables when it needs about ~70GW of electricity.

Did you include the electricity needed for when all heating, transport, industry etc is electrified?

Re: Portugal just ran on 100% renewables for six days in a row

#135

Post by hef19898 » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 7:46 AM UTC

realusername wrote: post #131

natmaka wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a work in progress, their transition isn't done yet. Without nuclear no risks tied to a major accident, dependancy towards uranium providers, hot waste disposal, overcentralization, overcentralization, proliferation, daunting building and decommission projects... ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38288706 ) Not a bad deal.

Yeah no risk of a major accident ... apart from climate change you know. If Germany could at least reach the 90s levels of France, that's why I would consider that some work in progress already

I love that, you know? You have some good news regarding electricity and renewables, and instead of being happy, people start to look for problems.

But let's role with it for second. Renewables are, unfortunately, not at a point yet where they can cover 100% of demand. We cannot change the current mix neither. So, what would be your proposed way forward to "solve" climate change? I am really curious, because most of the time people just ignore the time schedule behind those transitions (power plants have to be built, grids to be extended...).

Re: Portugal just ran on 100% renewables for six days in a row

#136

Post by notTooFarGone » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 7:50 AM UTC

gustavus wrote: post #11

wongarsu wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as the gas plants aren't burning any natural gas, I would say that's fair. Standing by to supplement power on load spikes is one of the primary roles of gas plants (together with pumped hydro), and that they didn't need to supply any electricity over those six days is noteworthy. From a climate standpoint there also isn't much wrong with having generating capacity in fossil fuels, what matters is how many gre…

Of course if they had a nuclear base they wouldn't even need the natural gas plants.

This guy doesn't understand nuclear

Re: Portugal just ran on 100% renewables for six days in a row

#137

Post by adev_ » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 7:51 AM UTC

KingOfCoders wrote: post #119

adev_ wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Average on the year 2022 gives similar result with a Portugal at 227g, a Sweden around 22g, France around 72g, Switzerland around 50g.[1] Data provided by the French electrical network manager are also aligned with these estimations [2] And other sources I am aware of also report similar numbers [3] Are you sure your number is not also counting residential heating and not only electricity generation ? [1] https://app…

Are your numbers electricity or primary energy? You're sources don't say. I assume nowtricity is electricity because of the domain? But then it says "CO2 emissions per country" so one would assume it's all of primary energy (including traffic and heating?).

> Are your numbers electricity or primary energy?

The original article speaks about electricity production, not primary energy, so are my numbers.

Re: Portugal just ran on 100% renewables for six days in a row

#138

Post by hef19898 » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 7:51 AM UTC

fyrn_ wrote: post #40

monero-xmr wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did they cancel all the wind power plants in New Jersey even though they are cheaper?

Back before the interest rate increases even barely tenable projects were doable. Cost of financing is higher now, so the risk equation changes. That company is still going ahead with a project in New York, and Jersey has another wind projected lined up from another company. Wouldn't take this single data point as indicating anything meaningful

Yeah, start-upsnonly fail because of the interest rate hike and not because they are unsustainable businesses. But other sectors requiring serious financing are absolutely not affected... Not.

Re: Portugal just ran on 100% renewables for six days in a row

#139

Post by adev_ » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 7:54 AM UTC

troupo wrote: post #128

adev_ wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would people that minus a post stating facts backed by sources deign to explain why ? I am aware that reality can be harsh to accept sometimes. And that a world where renewable are our only source of energy is more seducing to our collective imagination. But unfortunately, it is still the reality. And we have to deal with it, even if it is pretty unpleasant.

In a different discussion a few days ago someone told me I was lying when I pointed out that Germany is burning 20GW of coal to compensate for their 140GW of renewables working at only 15% capacity.

I am half surprised. People are often shocked when they discover the real number about the Carbon intensity of the German electricity production.

There is years of green washing to digest before accepting the truth.

Re: Portugal just ran on 100% renewables for six days in a row

#140

Post by KingOfCoders » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 7:54 AM UTC

troupo wrote: post #128

adev_ wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would people that minus a post stating facts backed by sources deign to explain why ? I am aware that reality can be harsh to accept sometimes. And that a world where renewable are our only source of energy is more seducing to our collective imagination. But unfortunately, it is still the reality. And we have to deal with it, even if it is pretty unpleasant.

In a different discussion a few days ago someone told me I was lying when I pointed out that Germany is burning 20GW of coal to compensate for their 140GW of renewables working at only 15% capacity.

The main challenge is not production but storage - e.g. several people I know have solar panels on their roof, sometimes with 5x their electricity peak usage without a way to store that electricity for later/night usage. The slow uptick of EVs in Germany is partialy part of the problem, it would be the easiest way to increase storage.

As a tought experiment, if all cars in Germany would be EVs, those could store 2 days of electricity usage.

For flat owners solar panel usage increased a lot, but battery production is way behind, the first usable ones arrived this year, but it will take some more years to get out of BETA. Also energy providers in Germany fight this tooth and nails, e.g. there is no easy way to get to the current usage data of your flat to regulate battery usage from solar storage ("zero feed-in").