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Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

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Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#131

Post by tw1984 »

smcl wrote: post #107
tw1984 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to make the point that the US is communist, unions are not a great example - they are few and very weak wait a second. unions in the US are weak? what a huge joke! UAW stopped the production of US made cars, asking 40% wage increase. Yet that is weak? let me tell you what is "weak" unions - in China, which implements state capitalism, unions represent the interests of the management & business owners, n…

The UAW striking, and politicians showing support for unions is nothing new and doesn't suggest the USA is suddenly careening towards communism. You're either incredibly naive or have consumed some hysterical far-right news if you believe this.

When compared to China, the US is getting more and more like a communist country while China is getting more and more into state capitalism.

There are facts you just can't deny at all -

* far less income inequality in the US. A US software engineer working for Google/Apple/Amazon probably makes 3-5x more than a typical unskilled US worker, in China, a Chinese software engineer working for Alibaba/Tencent/Huawei can easily make 30-50x wage of a typical unskilled Chinese worker.

* no union movements in China, they even banned The Internationale. the US is seeing wide spread strikes in many key sectors. this is eye opening for many Chinese.

* no covid handouts in China, you are always on your own. numerous communist style handouts in the US during covid, that caused extremely high inflation and the current demand for wage increases & strikes.

* free COVID-19 medicine in the US, full price out of your own pocket here in China. I paid two packs of Paxlovid back in Feb, cost me $600 USD and it was like winning the lottery to be able to buy them online, I had to try multiple time a day for two weeks, it sold out within seconds each time.

* far more social welfares in the US, tons of real public hospitals & social housing. here in China, if you don't have enough money, you won't get shocked by your medical bill because you will never be tested or treated in the first place. you are always on your own. by the US standard, there is 0 public hospital in China, no hospital is fully or even half government funded, all those so called Chinese public hospitals have to source their fundings on their own.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#132

Post by palata »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #47
palata wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take e.g. the drone industry, they are like 10 years ahead of the Western world. And still moving faster, it feels.

> take e.g. the drone industry, they are like 10 years ahead of the Western world These developments started before Xi became dictator. That’s a turning point for China. Today, Chinese drones are no longer a class ahead of their peers. Which is surprising, because they once were.

> Today, Chinese drones are no longer a class ahead of their peers.

They are more like 3-4 classes ahead, yes. The gap keeps increasing, it's quite amazing.

Or was that not your point?

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#133

Post by angra_mainyu »

jszymborski wrote: post #128
tibbydudeza wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He travels afaik - he did a lecture in Tokyo on entrepreneurship - his family is back home in China so there is no risk for the govt.

He lost more than half his wealth and was pushed out of Ant, all just after mysteriously vanishing for some time [0]. Those in China who have power and criticize the PRC are swiftly punished for it and stripped of that power. I know "freedom of speech" is a term that's been significantly watered down in common parlance, but this is the poster child of not having it. [0] https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/12/business/china-j…

What about: MacLean, Assange, Manning, Snowden, Crane, Swartz, Drake?

McCarthyism? The entire Twitter Files exposé? Arrests over social media arguments (I'm recalling cases particularly in the UK).

Both in the US and in Western Europe there's been a frightening and ever faster decay of freedom of speech over the past years.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#134

Post by angra_mainyu »

datadeft wrote: post #62
bjornsing wrote: post #40

Where I live (Sweden) it’s legal to use GitHub (with or without a VPN). But if I fail to report 138000 USD in earnings I’d still be in for a world of hurt: First the tax authority would take about 100000-200000 USD from me. Then I’d be prosecuted for tax fraud. Nobody would be upset or come to my defense. Not saying I prefer the Chinese system, but it’s interesting that in this specific case it’s probably more lenien…

"If you crush a cockroach, you're a hero. If you crush a beautiful butterfly, you're a villain. Morals have aesthetic criteria." This applies to the context of west vs China. Everything China does is because of oppression and everything the west does is because of democracy and protecting you.

I have to agree, this rhetoric has been exceedingly common nowadays.

It's stunning to see how many so-called liberals nowadays have little in common with the liberals of the 2000s, sometimes even the complete opposite. I recall standing against censorship, governmental abuse, american imperialism, and many other values to be firmly entrenched in the liberal camp when I was coming-of-age politically speaking back in the US.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#135

Post by jszymborski »

angra_mainyu wrote: post #133
jszymborski wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He lost more than half his wealth and was pushed out of Ant, all just after mysteriously vanishing for some time [0]. Those in China who have power and criticize the PRC are swiftly punished for it and stripped of that power. I know "freedom of speech" is a term that's been significantly watered down in common parlance, but this is the poster child of not having it. [0] https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/12/business/china-j…

What about: MacLean, Assange, Manning, Snowden, Crane, Swartz, Drake? McCarthyism? The entire Twitter Files exposé? Arrests over social media arguments (I'm recalling cases particularly in the UK). Both in the US and in Western Europe there's been a frightening and ever faster decay of freedom of speech over the past years.

We were talking about free speech (or the lack there of) in China so I fail to see how any of this is relevant. None of it makes speech any freer in China, none of this means money can save you, none of this is OK or should be tolerated.

I'm going to assume you are arguing in good faith, but FYI such "whataboutisms" are the go to defence of bad faith actors when any criticism of China is brought up.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#136

Post by angra_mainyu »

tw1984 wrote: post #106
throwaway4good wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around here setting up a sausage stand is tightly regulated. Granted. I don't know of any remotely reasonable (non-politicized) comparable study of economic freedom in China; my assessment is from talking to people (expats, entrepreneurs etc.) and just looking at what was going on. I remember sitting at a restaurant in a small village and watching a local drone company doing testing on the parking lot. 4 engineers an…

> Around here setting up a sausage stand is tightly regulated. Around here, setting up a sausage stand requires special approval from the Prime Minister of the People's Republic of China. That is the exact special & emergency arrangement they put forward during COVID - people were allowed to setup such stands in selected areas during weekends to boost economy during COVID.

What about before COVID?

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#137

Post by angra_mainyu »

raverbashing wrote: post #108
throwaway4good wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is very high on the economic freedom scale (setting up a business, taxation etc.); probably much higher than the US or Europe.

This is easily proved wrong China is in position 154 https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking "Oh but China, oh but Europe, oh blah blah blah" try actually establishing a company on the lower bottoms of the rank

https://www.networkideas.org/news-analysis/2005/06/index-of-...

Using the Heritage Foundation's ranking is quite misleading.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#138

Post by Brian_K_White »

emsign wrote: post #54
FredPret wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economic freedom is second among the freedoms only after physical safety. With enough money you can buy all the others, and all the others exist primarily to ensure you can be safe and end up with enough money. This fact is ignored, overlooked, or pooh-poohed by those whose ambitions for society requires a large state. To maximize human freedom, there's an optimal balance to be struck between a stateless society and…

Economic freedom can only be enforced with police, meaning the state protecting the assets of the rich. So no, it's not as simple as you say.

Perhaps that is why they explicity did not even try to say it was simple, and explicitly spoke of a scale with stateless at one end and the optimum somewhere between the ends.

there was no "as simple as you say"

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#139

Post by npteljes »

b112 wrote: post #50
lziest wrote: post #4

The fine is actually 200 yuan, but the salary, over 1 million yuan, which he received while working remotely has been deemed as "illegal income" and subject to confiscation.

Having your income confiscated is very much a "fine".

Not really. Confiscating the illegal earnings is not part of the punishment, the fine is just the extra part.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#140

Post by winter_blue »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #55
aydyn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like he's saying this is not an abuse of the central government, but by a local one. I doubt VPNs are illegal in China in general.

VPNs are illegal in China in general, but China isn’t a rule of law country so that in itself isn’t very meaningful (free speech is guaranteed by the Chinese constitution for example, but that’s irrelevant). VPN usage is rarely prosecuted unless they want to get you on something (a basic thing in rule by law).

By your logic, doesn’t not enforcing some law make any country not be a “rule of law country”? By that principle, would most western countries failing to properly enforce drug make them be not “rule of law” countries?
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