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Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

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Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#101
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is very high on the economic freedom scale (setting up a business, taxation etc.); probably much higher than the US or Europe.

That is not true. You are only allowed to setup businesses that are considered as in non-key sectors. Try setting a private gas station, or an ISP. Good lucky for that. The most recent example is the private tutor business, setting a private tutor business helping kids to do better in their maths exams can get you into big big trouble with the state. We are talking about an economy that didn't allow people to freely…

Around here setting up a sausage stand is tightly regulated.

Granted. I don't know of any remotely reasonable (non-politicized) comparable study of economic freedom in China; my assessment is from talking to people (expats, entrepreneurs etc.) and just looking at what was going on.

I remember sitting at a restaurant in a small village and watching a local drone company doing testing on the parking lot. 4 engineers and a drone the size of a small car.

Just no way that would be allowed in anywhere in Europe.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#102
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not true. You are only allowed to setup businesses that are considered as in non-key sectors. Try setting a private gas station, or an ISP. Good lucky for that. The most recent example is the private tutor business, setting a private tutor business helping kids to do better in their maths exams can get you into big big trouble with the state. We are talking about an economy that didn't allow people to freely…

Around here setting up a sausage stand is tightly regulated. Granted. I don't know of any remotely reasonable (non-politicized) comparable study of economic freedom in China; my assessment is from talking to people (expats, entrepreneurs etc.) and just looking at what was going on. I remember sitting at a restaurant in a small village and watching a local drone company doing testing on the parking lot. 4 engineers an…

Europe isn't a bastion of economic freedom - a previous commenter described an absolutely egregious amount of government overreach pertaining taxes.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if I fail to report 138000 USD in earnings I’d still be in for a world of hurt: First the tax authority would take about 100000-200000 USD from me. Then I’d be prosecuted for tax fraud And where in the world do you think this would not be the case? (except maybe in 3rd world countries with bribable authorities) (such a fine of 100k is probably on the higher end for most places though)

In most of EU, the tax authority first asks you nicely to fix your mistake, and only if you don't, they confiscate the owed amount plus a small fine (given that it's your first offense and they don't see it as intentional fraud). I used to have my life in serious disorder and they confiscated the owed tax three times from me. Never got fined more than $100, though I had to call and apologize the second and third time…

Yeah, you're paying the tax owed, not much way around that unless you have allowed deductions or something else

But the higher fines/criminal charge are usually for very, very egregious failures to pay

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is very high on the economic freedom scale (setting up a business, taxation etc.); probably much higher than the US or Europe.

China is a has a very statist economic system with limited economic freedom for consumers. To list a few examples - urban property cannot be owned outright by any non-state entity, Chinese citizens are heavily restricted from investing overseas, and foreign investment/media consumption is also limited.

A question on the ownership of property in china and how it relates to the "nail" houses often seen in pictures.

While I am sure real property ownership is weaker in china, The propaganda is I assume based on a exaggerated version of the truth. I also have never seen a public works project held up so dramatically by a single reluctant owner. Usually the government will claim eminent domain and poof, there go all your so called real property ownership rights, up in smoke.

What is it about these cases that that a person in a communist state(where by definition no one owns property(yes I know this is not strictly true but for the sake of the question hear me out)) apparently has stronger property guarantees than than our ownership centric capitalist state?

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#105
post #96
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is a typical state capitalist country. You don't have the state looking after the wellfares of individuals, you are on your own all the time. $0 handouts during covid pandemic is the best example. You don't have unions stopping businesses and asking better pay & less working hours for its members. Talking about communism, the US is getting there fast. Look at its current union movement, with both 2024 US presid…

If you want to make the point that the US is communist, unions are not a great example - they are few and very weak, with a couple exceptions (Police Unions). The US is way more similar to communism in the way the ultrarich accumulate benefits but socialize loses. Another big example is the military, which is essentially a socialist organization.

> If you want to make the point that the US is communist, unions are not a great example - they are few and very weak

wait a second. unions in the US are weak? what a huge joke! UAW stopped the production of US made cars, asking 40% wage increase. Yet that is weak?

let me tell you what is "weak" unions - in China, which implements state capitalism, unions represent the interests of the management & business owners, not workers & union members. Permanent contract is pretty much unheard of for labour workers, you won't get paid for working over time, 4 days per week communist style working hours is like 100 years away, you'd be luck if you don't need to work 7 days a week. you still pay your union fees, but you won't get anything from them, strike gets you into jail and your union bosses are going to kick your ass even before the arrival of police.

you got brainwashed by your "free" media. you've never ever experienced the brutal state capitalism, as you live in your lovely western communist society.

here in Shanghai, the economic capital of this state capitalist country called China -

* you don't get treated for medical conditions if you don't pay all those treatments in advance. pay your bill late kind of communist arrangement doesn't exist here.

* if you are a labour worker, you need to save like 500 years worth of your before tax income to buy a shitty & tiny apartment, that is right, you need to be start saving money before the independence of the communist US.

* can't afford to buy? no worries, just rent, 3 months rent plus 1 month bond and 1 month rent equivalent agent fee is the typical condition here. factor in the cost to move, you pretty much need 6 months rent worth of money to afford to rent.

* social housing you ask - people are going to laugh at you, that hasn't been invented yet. the state is the biggest land owner, residential land is auction to developers to build residential properties, why would any sane people working for the state to build social housing to undermine one of the largest income streams of the state?

* can't afford to rent and there is no social housing? well, homeless is not an option as that deteriorate the quality of investment environment of your city. you will be dealt with like a piece of trash.

angry about all these? well, they promote a few poster boys every year who managed to rise from the very bottom, they tell you something you probably heard it many times already - it is all about personal choices.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#106
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not true. You are only allowed to setup businesses that are considered as in non-key sectors. Try setting a private gas station, or an ISP. Good lucky for that. The most recent example is the private tutor business, setting a private tutor business helping kids to do better in their maths exams can get you into big big trouble with the state. We are talking about an economy that didn't allow people to freely…

Around here setting up a sausage stand is tightly regulated. Granted. I don't know of any remotely reasonable (non-politicized) comparable study of economic freedom in China; my assessment is from talking to people (expats, entrepreneurs etc.) and just looking at what was going on. I remember sitting at a restaurant in a small village and watching a local drone company doing testing on the parking lot. 4 engineers an…

> Around here setting up a sausage stand is tightly regulated.

Around here, setting up a sausage stand requires special approval from the Prime Minister of the People's Republic of China. That is the exact special & emergency arrangement they put forward during COVID - people were allowed to setup such stands in selected areas during weekends to boost economy during COVID.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#107
post #105
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to make the point that the US is communist, unions are not a great example - they are few and very weak, with a couple exceptions (Police Unions). The US is way more similar to communism in the way the ultrarich accumulate benefits but socialize loses. Another big example is the military, which is essentially a socialist organization.

> If you want to make the point that the US is communist, unions are not a great example - they are few and very weak wait a second. unions in the US are weak? what a huge joke! UAW stopped the production of US made cars, asking 40% wage increase. Yet that is weak? let me tell you what is "weak" unions - in China, which implements state capitalism, unions represent the interests of the management & business owners, n…

The UAW striking, and politicians showing support for unions is nothing new and doesn't suggest the USA is suddenly careening towards communism. You're either incredibly naive or have consumed some hysterical far-right news if you believe this.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economic freedom is second among the freedoms only after physical safety. With enough money you can buy all the others, and all the others exist primarily to ensure you can be safe and end up with enough money. This fact is ignored, overlooked, or pooh-poohed by those whose ambitions for society requires a large state. To maximize human freedom, there's an optimal balance to be struck between a stateless society and…

China is very high on the economic freedom scale (setting up a business, taxation etc.); probably much higher than the US or Europe.

This is easily proved wrong

China is in position 154 https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

"Oh but China, oh but Europe, oh blah blah blah" try actually establishing a company on the lower bottoms of the rank

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#109
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is a has a very statist economic system with limited economic freedom for consumers. To list a few examples - urban property cannot be owned outright by any non-state entity, Chinese citizens are heavily restricted from investing overseas, and foreign investment/media consumption is also limited.

A question on the ownership of property in china and how it relates to the "nail" houses often seen in pictures. While I am sure real property ownership is weaker in china, The propaganda is I assume based on a exaggerated version of the truth. I also have never seen a public works project held up so dramatically by a single reluctant owner. Usually the government will claim eminent domain and poof, there go all your…

My concern with Chinese property rights is the nature of the land use right rather than the respect those rights receive for from the government.

For example instead of buying a house in China, people obtain residential land use rights from the local authority for a period of up to 70 years [1]. AFAIK this translates to a 70 year leasehold contract in British, which isn't that much. It's very possible, in theory, to 'purchase' a house in China and have be unable to live in it within your lifetime.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_law_in_China

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#110
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if I fail to report 138000 USD in earnings I’d still be in for a world of hurt: First the tax authority would take about 100000-200000 USD from me. Then I’d be prosecuted for tax fraud And where in the world do you think this would not be the case? (except maybe in 3rd world countries with bribable authorities) (such a fine of 100k is probably on the higher end for most places though)

> And where in the world do you think this would not be the case? I think their point is precisely that this Chinese case might be more similar rather than different to the rest of the world. > (such a fine of 100k is probably on the higher end for most places though) In neither the Chinese case nor on the Swedish case does it seem to be a fine. It's rather a confiscation of illegal earnings, which is then followed b…

Confiscation of owed income tax - sure. But the earnings? That's draconian. It's not illegal to work for foreign companies, even in China.
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