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Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

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Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#131

Post by rbanffy »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #112
sofixa wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Brazil used to at least pretend to be a democracy with a constitution and rule of law What do you mean? Didn't they have an election that the incumbent lost (for very good reasons I might add, anyone who bungles the Covid response that bad doesn't deserve to remain in power regardless of anything else (and there was a lot of "else")) recently, implying democracy and all that?

[flagged]

> Last year the brazilian armed forces released a report

Months after neglecting to participate in the public processes that audit the machine and its software. Would you trust they would say anything that could displease Bolsonaro? Don't you think someone would have noticed such a blatantly obvious issue in a previous session, at some point in time after the mid 1990s at least?

> Biden's CIA officials told Bolsonaro

By any chance, wouldn't they be the same who helped stoke the anti-left feelings that let to a coup against Dilma Rousseff?

> Bolsonaro is a fucking idiot when it comes to health care.

That is true, and would be true if you remove the last six words as well.

> judiciary monarchy

Just noting here Bolsonaro named two supreme court justices, explicitly, for ideological and religious reasons. "Terribly Evangelical" were his words.

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#132

Post by NayamAmarshe »

hiimkeks wrote: post #130
NayamAmarshe wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thread you linked is talking about a totally different algorithm, not relevant to our discussion. MTProto 1.0 had flaws and proven vulnerabilities. Telegram ditched the algorithm after 2013. MTProto 2.0 is much secure and has been audited multiple times already without fail. The security is solid, that's the consensus. Also, there are 2 types of MTProto 2.0 algorithms. One is cloud encryption and the other is end…

Apparently they didn't learn much, given that MTProto 2.0 still uses IGE. Or still derives the IV from a hash of the message. The article you link does not mention "cloud encryption". What is that? TLS?

The cloud encryption is what I linked, the Server-Client encryption. Just below it, you can see E2E.

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#133

Post by p-e-w »

anigbrowl wrote: post #119
p-e-w wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course it does, you can quantify the degree to which a country is authoritarian Really? How? I mean of course without resorting to what amounts to political opinions.

Measure legislative independence, frequency of regime changes, election margins, concentrations of executive authority and so on. Sure, it's a 'political opinion' that nobody is so cool they are naturally re-elected over and over with 97%+ majorities, but you can certainly measure the number of standard deviations in election results. This book is readable and essays a rigorous approach to the topic, albeit within an…

Most of these things cannot be "measured", and weighing them to produce some kind of aggregate score is inherently a biased process. There isn't any remotely agreed upon method to determine what constitutes an authoritarian government (or even where a specific government falls on a scale between authoritarian and democracy, when compared to others).

In some aspects, Switzerland is more authoritarian than Saudi Arabia. For example, in Switzerland there are strict building codes everywhere that restrict what kind of house you are allowed to build for yourself; in most of Saudi Arabia, you can build your house however you want. The very idea of a scale that somehow "measures" such things, and adequately incorporates them into a coherent picture of the whole, is absurd.

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#134

Post by rbanffy »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #128
RobotToaster wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read similar theories that the CIA were behind Lula's original ban on running for election. I'm not saying you're wrong, I guess it's possible both are true.

Another theory I have is the CIA leaked the Jan 8 recordings to CNN. Security camera recordings that implied he and his people staged a false flag terrorist attack operation in Brasilia in order to justify censoring the internet and persecuting the opposition. They made those recordings confidential and stalled official attempts at investigation as much as possible. I actually thought they were going to just memory h…

> They made those recordings confidential and stalled official attempts at investigation as much as possible.

They made the recordings unavailable to Congress because several members of Congress are being investigated for their involvement. Also, it's not a legal responsibility of Congress to investigate criminal and terrorist attacks - that responsibility belongs to the police, as the responsibility to ensure the safety of the president is with the Institutional Security Cabinet, which, until recently, was stacked with Bolsonaro supporters (one was recorded serving water to intruders).

It's naïve to the extreme to think the federal police doesn't have the full recordings (CNN showed a few, out of order, with selected faces blurred, including the guy serving the intruders) and hasn't had them from the start, as the first thing they'd request would be those recording (and they know how many cameras there are, and how much material they should have - running time times the number of cameras).

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#135

Post by rbanffy »

dudus wrote: post #101
vitorgrs wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm? Every ISP is able to block websites. This happens constantly, specially with piracy-related websites.

Yes sure. It's just very efficient apparently. More than expected for government technical stuff.

When I worked at an ISP we had standard procedures to follow when receiving requests from legal authorities. All our contacts were strictly mediated by our legal team, who filtered requests and prevented any direct contact with the authorities (which could lead to complying to illegal requests).

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#136

Post by matheusmoreira »

rektide wrote: post #12
whatsu wrote: post #2

No company should think it's above the national laws

You and JP Barlow's Declaration of Independence of Cyberspace can have words. There's 195 nations on this planet. Should every company lower themselves below every nation? Without question? There's far more provinces with some lawmaking capability. How logistically do we even begin to figure out how to obey each & every single local rule? These nations are on the internet. It's an unplace to connect all places. If yo…

The inevitable result will be the destruction of the internet as we know it today. The international network will fracture into multiple regional networks with heavy filtering at the borders as nations seek to impose their laws on it. Regnet, if you will.

I'm glad I got to experience the true internet. It was great while it lasted. Truly a wonder of humanity.

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#137

Post by p-e-w »

anigbrowl wrote: post #94
bhk wrote: post #29

Doesn't this sound like a dictatorship?

No, it sounds like a civil law country dealing with a recalcitrant business. I think the judge is reaching a bit but I don't know much about Brazil's legal code. Common law countries tend to be extremely accommodating of business entities because they're obsessed with procedure (imho) to the detriment of doing any enforcement. Civil law jurisdictions take the approach of 'we need compliance up front, we can quibble a…

> No, it sounds like a civil law country dealing with a recalcitrant business.

That's assuming the judge actually followed the law and the constitution, which isn't obvious at all in this case.

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#138

Post by nosianu »

buitreVirtual wrote: post #19
pmeira wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last year when something like this happened, it came out that there's a legal representative in Rio: https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/internacional/en/brazil/2022/0...

So they can talk to the representatives. They cannot make them remove the app.

> They cannot make them remove the app

From the article:

> Later, several Telegram users said they could no longer use the messaging app after local carriers complied with the ruling. Google and Apple were also ordered to block the app.

So yes, apparently they can. Or did you think it needed Telegram's cooperation?

Even if it is possible to install apps manually, most users are not "power users" able or even just willing (or willing to learn) to do that. Another aspect of the much more curated software world of Android or iPhone vs. PCs, where blocking would indeed be mostly useless even for regular users.

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#139

Post by chupasaurus »

supriyo-biswas wrote: post #44
jojobas wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because SSL is SSL. They sure tried to block a lot of it. I guess they could collect public keys and block them, but blocking itself is still done by ISP on Roskomnadzor's orders, and they didn't include this capability. That would be another cat and mouse game anyway, you can cut new keypairs faster than you can block them.

India does DNS and SNI (which exposes the hostname) based TLS blocking, I wonder why Russia couldn’t do the same.

State-controlled DPI couldn't process 0.1% of traffic at the time.

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#140

Post by peterfirefly »

anigbrowl wrote: post #110
rektide wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You and JP Barlow's Declaration of Independence of Cyberspace can have words. There's 195 nations on this planet. Should every company lower themselves below every nation? Without question? There's far more provinces with some lawmaking capability. How logistically do we even begin to figure out how to obey each & every single local rule? These nations are on the internet. It's an unplace to connect all places. If yo…

I was around for the DoIoC the first time and while there's a lot to recommend that document, it's also pompous and arrogant in many respects, to the detriment of reasonable discourse since. If your area has stupid beef, it's on you to handle your shit & make it so Yeah yeah, nothing is ever our problem, it's always someone else's problem and other people's problems are stupid. Do you not realize how head-up-the-ass…

Have you read the American Declaration of Independence? It is definitely pompous and arrogant -- and also full of lies. It is genre requirement.
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