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Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

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Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#131
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growing up on IRC, I have very much the same experience as you but quite opposite as I experienced hardly any racism, and nobody knew my identity either. Nobody wanted to involve their personal lives or details until recently when identity and identifying became the thing.

It's not about telling people your ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation, it's about WHAT IS SAID about your ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation. The beauty of the internet is anonymity (to a certain extent), but that doesn't mean that you can't see or hear things that exclude you.

We focused on technical discussions on technical channels.

I’m sorry if you had a bad time on IRC, but as someone who cut their teeth on IRC in the early 90s, and got their career started through contacts made on IRC, what you describe couldn’t be further from the kind of technical communities I participated in.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#133
> I realize this isn't the type of content posted to HN usually

It was once very common, until a "no politics" rule was experimented with, where "politics" was largely a euphemism for "discussion of minority issues in tech." This rule was eventually abandoned, and just applied manually through direct moderation. After that point the only race/diversity stuff that gets through is anti-diversity stuff. I assume this is being upvoted because it's being mistaken for libertarian "race realism" from the title.

You're saying that companies should stop parading their "diversity" in their PR, and especially stop focusing on individuals. I tend to agree, but if they stop using black people in their PR, they're probably going to stop hiring black people. They don't know any.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#134
post #13
post #4

I think you raise some good points, and I think there are ways to handle DEI hiring well, and ways not to do it well. IMHO, when it's done well, DEI hiring isn't about filling quotas or giving anyone an edge, but it's about making sure that everyone has an equal chance. I've been part of DEI hiring at a couple companies, and my role has been much more about answering questions and making sure that candidates start th…

> it's about making sure that everyone has an equal chance How does that look in practice? In most companies it seems that means that under-represented people get green lighted at the resume screen step at a much higher percentage than over-represented people. But the bar is the same at the interview stage. But don't you see how that is a big dis-advantage for the median over-represented applicant?

I've sat in on group interviews where we usually have a side chat discussing the candidate. Wouldn't you know, every time a candidate of color was being interviewed one guy on our team would take much longer to convince they knew what they were doing. White women and men, got an ok much more quickly. I asked my boss if he noticed this, and he said he did not, but when I asked another PoC on the team, he definitely noticed. This is the way things usually go.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#135

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

I am on some IT forums for almost 20 years; I don't know what is the gender or race of most people there, I have no idea what is their sexuality and there is no racism, sexism or any "ism" in these communities. The day someone will bring the argument "I am a green isomorph Martian, so for me DDR4 is way slower than DDR2 with the same CAS" then the acid answers will not be related to the color green, Martial descent or anything else but lack of merit of that statement.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#136
The purpose of DEI initiatives in most companies is not to actually create equity but to be able to demonstrate that you're doing something. If your company explicitly does "diversity hires" to hire people by skin color, they're clearly more interested in tokenism, which only serves the company, not the candidates.

I think "diversity hires" are fine for marginalised communities analogous to grants but this would apply to paid internships or apprentice programs, not regular positions. Otherwise as in your case it clearly sends a message that the candidates wouldn't qualify otherwise.

If a company takes DEI seriously, the best approach for diversity in hiring would be to recruit specifically from the target demographics via targeted advertising (the old-fashioned way, not Google ads). Having to apply a diversity filter to an already existing applicant pool will always create an impression of tokenism.

Of course the elephant in the room is that these are usually companies founded by white guys, run by white guys, owned by white guys, who mostly initially hired other white guys. In the past decades you might also have some Asian (specifically Chinese or Indian) guys in the mix and some might be openly gay or bi but they'll almost always share the same upper-middle class rich kid background. Trying to bolt on "diversity" to that after the fact is always going to be more about optics than genuine concern for marginalised folks.

The real thing to worry about is company culture as building a culture around a bunch of wealthy white guys is likely going to make it hard to be welcoming to people outside that microcosm, at least if you care about more than mere skin color. But from the sound of it, your company's attitude to DEI is more akin to that of a Victorian Englishman proudly presenting his "coloured" servants.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#137
I find the way DEI people talk about "people of color" to be demeaning. The language alone is bizarre: people will talk about an individual being "diverse," like they have multiple personalities or something. It's also extremely reductionist. As an immigrant from a Muslim country, I do bring a very different perspective on many things than native-born white Americans. But that's not really what they mean by "diversity." In practice they reduce "diversity" to the negative experiences darker skinned people may or may not have in a majority white society. "Tell me where the bad white people touched you."

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#138

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

Are you joking? We were absolutely not “virulently” anti- anyone on early IRC. We didn’t even have real names or photos. Nobody had any idea who was behind the keyboard, and that was okay.

Why would I be joking? I'm glad you didn't have a negative experience, but my point wasn't about you. You are not a "we" in the masses of the internet.

You don't have to know anything about anyone to say derogatory things about a group they identify with. Just look at the bigotry shared on social media today.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about telling people your ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation, it's about WHAT IS SAID about your ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation. The beauty of the internet is anonymity (to a certain extent), but that doesn't mean that you can't see or hear things that exclude you.

Exactly. The old saying was "The beauty of the Internet is nobody knows if you're a dog." ... except they didn't mean dog, and we never said why it might matter what you are or what other people were assuming you were absent further information.

No, we literally meant dog. It was a joke.

Why might it matter? Because the rest of the world was a lot more racist and sexist, but IRC wasn’t.

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