Live data from Hacker News

Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

slowboring.com

131–140 of 188 posts

Re: Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

#131
post #29
post #4

We've already gone through an entire cycle of technology-driven higher education disruption... ever heard of an online degree? Many such online schools have made billions and lost it again by now. Separately, the accreditation scheme upholds a high barrier to entry for disruptors. Specifically, a school must be accredited (gatekept by the US Ed Dept) for matriculating students to be eligible for government financial…

Is the accreditation scheme really a high barrier to entry? Several new institutions of higher education have gained accreditation in recent years. There is some paperwork and hassle involved, but we've got to have quality control to prevent scammers from taking advantage of students and taxpayers. Accreditation doesn't prevent schools from adopting disruptive technologies.

> There is some paperwork and hassle involved...

Tell me you've never looked into tried to get a school accredited without telling me. /s

Accreditation is a multi-year effort, and institutions do not necessarily receive accreditation on their first attempt.

> Accreditation doesn't prevent schools from adopting disruptive technologies.

Disruptive technologies don't matter if the market doesn't believe your degree is worth the paper it's printed on. If your school is not accredited, students may find it difficult to transfer credits or apply to graduate programs. Additionally, students cannot use federal aid—grants or loans—for non-accredited programs.

> Is the accreditation scheme really a high barrier to entry?

Yes. Yes, it is.

Re: Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

#132
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be useful to expand proctoring centers, and provide online universities where many exams are taken in-person and a lot of the grade is determined by assignments that can't easily be faked/cheated (e.g. randomly-generated questions, projects) Universities have pre-existing weight and "old money" recognition, but there's nothing inherently more "reliable" about them than online. A lot of people cheat in college,…

Random does not prevent cheating. Cheating happens because students know the problem style ahead of time. It’s like doing leet code, vs knowing the question and then redoing it with a slightly different question

Being prepared for the problem style ahead of time isn't cheating, it's just studying.

If your claim is that this style of studying isn't preparing students for the real world where the problems cannot be easily predicted then I definitely agree. But cramming isn't cheating, students are just trying to succeed within the system.

Re: Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

#133
I went to an Ivy League university. Was studying for Biochem one year to meet a requirement. Class had ~500 people in it and no classes. You just go to study sections once a week, and take the tests. The study sections were all run by OTHER undergrads and the entire thing was run by an adjunct.

I ask one of the TAs (same year as me) - "Why the fuck are we paying so much for this education. My high school teachers put in 10x more effort." He says - "You have it all wrong - it's not about the education, it's about the credential and the networking that happens."

15 years later, and I finally realize he was ABSOLUTELY FRICKIN RIGHT.

Re: Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

#135

From what I see technology has definitely disrupted higher education. Textbooks, worksheets, and report cards are being replaced by Khan Academy, MyLab, Canvas. Teachers are doing less teaching and delegating more tasks to these services: assigning online modules, quizzes, and resources to help students (and this isn't necessarily a bad thing, as some of these online modules are really good). I predict that very soon…

I have discovered that ChatGPT is useless for advanced learning, at least at its present state of development. It's often just wrong, often incomplete - not really any more reliable than just seaching Wikipedia for answers to questions.

ChatGPT is horribly misleading and outrageously factually incorrect.

The next version of it however...

Re: Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In social science and humanities, I agree with you that self studying is an uphill battle. You'll just sound naive unless (1) you've made a herculean effort in studying, and (2) you've thought very critically on your own about how you will assimilate and where you will fit into the existing space of thought. There are no definitively correct opinions in these fields but plenty of influential people have theories. My…

I’ve taught mathematics for over 20 years in higher education and I strongly disagree with your view on the relative ease of learning math on one’s own. Let’s take a simple example. Here’s the distributive property for rings: a(b + c) = ab + ac It’s easy for me to convince someone that because of this property we get the following: 3(x + 2) = 3x + 6 It’s much harder to convince someone that 3x + 6 = 3(x + 2) It’s har…

I agree with you except for the very last point, that "students need to be guided on problems at the time they do them". I think this issue is fundamental to the tradeoffs of self studying that I've experienced. I want to point out: the guide doesn't necessarily have to be a human. And textbooks accomplish this by giving examples that walk through how to solve problems similar to the exercises. Unfortunately this is a useful secret about textbook and problem design that is not common knowledge to students. (I.e., the principle of charity, principle of relevance, Chekhov's gun, etc.)

I agree with the point of your example, but maybe not the choice of example.

For your example, Gallian (which imo is the standard intro algebra book) includes this property in the definition of a ring: "Property 6. a(b + c) = ab + ac and (b + c)a = ba + bc". (Probably in order to disclaim the confusion you're talking about.) Then he goes on to derive 6-7 other properties of groups that will (of course) be useful in the exercises.

I definitely found it's really important when self-studying to pick the right textbook. Definitely you have to be an experienced educator to write a good book that anticipates most of these things. But I agree that it's impossible for any textbook to anticipate every place someone reading it might get stuck. Let's say for a given student it happens 5-6 times in a really high quality textbook like Gallian or Rudin PoMA. They have 3 options (1) ask on mathematics.stackexchange.com and probably get an answer because it's a great community, (2) try to figure it out themselves, or (3) pay $600 and invest 3h/wk to take an algebra class that might cover the first 1/2 of the textbook in 4 months.

I think where we disagree is what are the constraints of the tradeoff between attending a class vs. reading the book. My experience has been that, if the subject is interesting enough, reading a good quality textbook is cheaper and 2-3x faster than taking a course, but at certain points it can be much more challenging. I think where it depends on which student is how much more challenging, i.e., will they be able to dig themselves out of those holes in a few minutes or a few hours. I was personally in the middle of these two extremes, but I still thought it was worth it to self study after taking 3-4 classes in the math department, then I skipped a bunch (7 semesters) of analysis/algebra/topology and came back and took 2-3 grad courses, where I didn't really understand the main goal of the subjects until I took the classes. And then I went into CS industry and never used any of it again. But I don't regret the experience; it was legitimately interesting to learn about math.

I think you have to be legitimately interested in a subject to self study it successfully. But that's true about studying serious math in general though: you have to be unrelentingly into it, or else you're just really misguided and shouldn't be there, given the high competition, poor odds for any future in math, and no practical use for any of the theory.

That's my experience with it and why I made the argument that I made.

Re: Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

#137

I went to an Ivy League university. Was studying for Biochem one year to meet a requirement. Class had ~500 people in it and no classes. You just go to study sections once a week, and take the tests. The study sections were all run by OTHER undergrads and the entire thing was run by an adjunct. I ask one of the TAs (same year as me) - "Why the fuck are we paying so much for this education. My high school teachers put…

No post body was provided.

Re: Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In social science and humanities, I agree with you that self studying is an uphill battle. You'll just sound naive unless (1) you've made a herculean effort in studying, and (2) you've thought very critically on your own about how you will assimilate and where you will fit into the existing space of thought. There are no definitively correct opinions in these fields but plenty of influential people have theories. My…

I’ve taught mathematics for over 20 years in higher education and I strongly disagree with your view on the relative ease of learning math on one’s own. Let’s take a simple example. Here’s the distributive property for rings: a(b + c) = ab + ac It’s easy for me to convince someone that because of this property we get the following: 3(x + 2) = 3x + 6 It’s much harder to convince someone that 3x + 6 = 3(x + 2) It’s har…

1+1 x 2

this has been doing rounds on twitter how people do not have grasp of basic maths and it points out a good argument for people who have been taught "good basics"... like i recently asked a doctor who says they are bad at maths and they just blurted out 3. i asked why and they responded, "uh.... bodmas?"

its such a small thing really, like in your primary and secondary education, of all the classes you attend, this is just a tiny tiny topic that must've been taught but because you were taught its importance and use it as a building block early on, it just feels like second nature.

like the tables of 2-9. pretty hard for kids to remember but once they do and they are taught to HOW to use it, it really helps them

Re: Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

#139

I've worked in the ed-tech space for years and am good friends with many of the early pioneers. Most of the capturable value in education is signal of acquired knowledge and other factors. I'll address the knowledge signaling first. It has been possible for a century to self-study to the equivalent of a bachelor's degree using textbooks but it is very difficult to verify in a reasonable amount of time whether someone…

As for signalling, “The Case Against Education” by Bryan Caplan is a crisply argued case that signalling is >50% at least of what is going on.

Re: Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In social science and humanities, I agree with you that self studying is an uphill battle. You'll just sound naive unless (1) you've made a herculean effort in studying, and (2) you've thought very critically on your own about how you will assimilate and where you will fit into the existing space of thought. There are no definitively correct opinions in these fields but plenty of influential people have theories. My…

I’ve taught mathematics for over 20 years in higher education and I strongly disagree with your view on the relative ease of learning math on one’s own. Let’s take a simple example. Here’s the distributive property for rings: a(b + c) = ab + ac It’s easy for me to convince someone that because of this property we get the following: 3(x + 2) = 3x + 6 It’s much harder to convince someone that 3x + 6 = 3(x + 2) It’s har…

I think that OP's fundamental error is talking about school vs university. When I started my bachelor's studies in math the professor covered 3 years of high-school math in the first 2-3 weeks of the first semester.

Up to that point I too thought I could just learn by reading the textbook. University (assuming a good one, mine wasn't world famous but has a good reputation nationally & in Europe) level maths is completely different level than high school level math, and having access to the professors makes a big difference (although I was often the only student coming by at their office hours if it wasn't before a test, so I guess not everyone agrees with that).

Post reply on HN