Live data from Hacker News

Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

insideevs.com

131–140 of 267 posts

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#131
Hyundai, Kia, and Audi EVs have paddle shifters which controls the level of regeneration braking and feels very much like downshifting. One paddle (+) steps up the regen to the point where the “drag” gets progressively stronger. The other paddle (-) steps down regen to 0 where the car can coast and there is no regen drag whatsoever. Note this is not the same as Neutral. The car is always in Drive. The function only affects what happens when letting off the power pedal.

The nice thing about the regen paddle mechanical control is the no-look ability at your fingertips to change the car’s response depending on driving context. There are moments when you don’t want the car to tip into a regeneration drag when letting off the power pedal and sometimes you feel the need for the “engine braking” to engage right away.

All the other EVs just have strong regen (B setting) or low regen and the selection is a preset you have to choose either on the screen or somewhere near the shift cluster and isn’t exactly a no-look control you can change on the fly. The older VW Golf EV used to have a stick where you can tap up and down two levels of regen on the fly and that was also a great experience but now buttons have replaced the stick. (Sigh, it was nice while you had it, VW!) The Chevy Bolt has one paddle but it’s designed like a brake-with-your-hands lever when depressed. Not quite the effect of stepping up or down.

In sum, the feeling of downshifting, such as into a turn, can be controlled. On the other hand, there is no need for “upshifting” if the EV had adequate power to get to a high speed. Tesla’s power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get them to a really insane top speed. I think Toyota’s goal is to eke out more range because they want to use less powerful motors where the power and torque bands would benefit from gearing. My dream is for Tesla to add mechanical paddle shifters and do what Hyundai does.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#132
post #77

This is a neat example though of how arbitrary EV drivetrains are. A Toyota marketing exec's (just guessing) FUD about imagined consumer FUD turns into, why don't we just ramp down torque in notches in relation to road speed increments? Of course anyone who buys this is going to try it once then leave it in all-the-torque-all-the-time mode, but that's not the point. I can't say I've met a single three pedal afficiona…

The counter argument is that European vehicles are vastly using manual gear, despite the fact that except for a small minority, no one cares about the potential difference in torque. There is just a lot of people that are used the a certain solution and are resistant to change.

no one cares about the potential difference in torque

This stops being true the first time you depress the accelerator on an EV. My Kia has a 0-60 time comparable to a low-end Porsche.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#133
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I stick with a manual transmission -- far better handling in snow. Have not asked my EV peers how it's working for them.

As a former driver of many Audi quattros and a Canadian who lives on top of a hill with a AWD Tesla 3 I can say it's the best handling car in snow that I've driven (given clearance limits of a sedan). The instant reaction speed of its electric traction control to slippage will vastly outperform any manual transmission. You can drive like an idiot with the pedal to the floor and the car sorts itself out.

Interesting. I have fanatical Tesla fanboy friends in Denver Colorado who don't drive their teslas much in winter because they handle poorly in the snow on steep inclines and declines. The door lock issues and cold weather battery energy life and charging issues were their other problems

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#135
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone with zero sense of time, analog clocks let me use my spatial reasoning to reason about time. I am much more aware of how much time I'm spending on something with an analog clock

You piqued my curiousity here - do you mean you would think to yourself something along the lines of "I have until the minute hand goes 60 degrees further than it is now" as opposed to "I have 10 more minutes"?

I would think think this is rather common for people with a strong spatial intuition. When planning a task in steps I mentally see where the hands on the clock will be at the start of each task.

I also have an image for the year in my head when long term planning. It is dynamic and I see it from “today” wherever that is, and I approach upcoming events. It is cyclic in years but there is a difference between looking back on January which was and looking forward to the next January.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or imagine if you're blind. Trying to listen for tire noise.

Or imagine if you're a kid and it's physically impossible for you to see around an SUV parked adjacently to the crosswalk without actually sticking your head out into the street. That said, the "cars make noise go vroom" argument hasn't really worked for decades now. Modern mufflers mean most unmodified cars aren't loud enough to be clearly heard over background noise in an area with lots of cars. Pedestrian safety i…

> That said, the "cars make noise go vroom" argument hasn't really worked for decades now.

Tires often make more noise than car engines nowadays. I live along a busy street and often I can't audibly distinct a Tesla from an ICE except for a faint hum. They are both as loud when passing by.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#137
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In snowy conditions you don't actually want all the torque available: then you'd want to control the torque applied instead of the power delivered when starting to move (similar to placing a restriction on the top torque by shifting into second gear on manual shift cars).

At least in a Tesla it will automatically dial torque down when slip is detected. It accomplishes this via lowering amperage to the motor, it also can adjust wheel spin using individual wheel braking. All of this is already working fine with no transmission... Adding one to a consumer EV for snowy conditions is a step backwards in terms of more stuff to break and maintain. I believe this makes more sense for heavy eq…

From driving quite a bit on ice tracks here in Norway, tesla is by far the best there is when it comes to safety on snow/ice.

Not the most fun though unless you enable track mode or disconnect the traction control sensors.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#138
post #106
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In snowy conditions you don't actually want all the torque available: then you'd want to control the torque applied instead of the power delivered when starting to move (similar to placing a restriction on the top torque by shifting into second gear on manual shift cars).

That's why I stick with a manual transmission -- far better handling in snow. Have not asked my EV peers how it's working for them.

Do you have snow tires? Living in a snowy region, I've learned that nothing makes as big a difference as snow tires -- whether the car has stick, automatic, AWD, whatever.

Admittedly, it's hard for me to directly compare stick and automatic because the cars with automatic were also much heavier -- a minivan and a SUV.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#140
post #7

It is not the first time when product simulates imperfections of the past technology to make product more authentic in customers eyes. Film color,lenses defects, lots of "analog" audio effects and now cars.

The feeling of controlling a machine = "imperfections" What I would expect a machine to say. I, for one, do not welcome our new robot overlords.

I mean an EV will have a different feeling. No need to attempt to simulate legacy stuff. Learn to work with the new stuff.

The interesting thing is with an EV you can customize the crap out of how the thing feels. You can (theoretically) tweak all the rates used by the controls to make it feel any way you want.

Post reply on HN