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The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

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Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#131

Post by lnxg33k1 »

feurio wrote: post #113
lnxg33k1 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also fight noble cause in a wrong way, you go with the alert against racial prejudice and discrimination in a way that causes other issues, I am against woke because they want people banned or muted or offended from platform for saying things that they don't agree with I think you're oversimplifying serious issues there, it's not being against or pro racial prejudice, it's being against racial prejudice but a…

I don't think that I am oversimplifying anything. Why are you conflating freedom of speech, moderation and censorship? Freedom of speech means the government won't come and arrest you for saying something. That's got nothing to do with wokeness or Twitter. Twitter (et al) are commercial businesses. They have terms of service and if you don't abide to them you get kicked. It's very simple. You're not paying for it - y…

If someone is denying the holocaust you don't give him a megaphone to express it, but you also talk to him and show him proof and surely you don't kill him or censor him or incarcerate him

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#132

Post by kbelder »

feurio wrote: post #78
wccrawford wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't just that they're alert to it, they're hyper alert to it. They even see it where it doesn't exist, and they "white knight" for it, trying to prevent people from giving offense even if nobody is actually offended. They take "being a good person" so far that they make life hard for others instead. The root of their beliefs is good: All people are worthy of respect and shouldn't be judged based on things out of…

Can you give an example, please? ("They take "being a good person" so far that they make life hard for others instead.", for example is a bit vague - that could apply to pious Christians, you're not against Christians, are you?)

It feels like you're being disingenuous. If you've spent time on HN and other forums, I have a hard time believing you don't understand the terminology he's using. It's especially pernicious, because the OP is not a native English speaker, and so he may believe he's actually being difficult to understand, when he's really not.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#133

Post by adolph »

BeefWellington wrote: post #16
gorwell wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you hear the word `misinformation`, you can generally substitute with `wrongthink`. It makes much more sense that way.

I dunno about that. Thought experiment: The Earth is a flat disc. Is this misinformation, wrongthink, or both? To be sure it's a vague term applied quite continuously online but simply deflecting it as actually meaning "wrongthink" is disingenuous. There's a lot of misinformation being spread specifically about objective measurable facts. It is simultaneously true that a lot of opinions are being mislabeled as misinf…

> The Earth is a flat disc.

> Is this misinformation, wrongthink, or both?

Neither. It is an assertion based on a frame of reference. The mapping systems used on my phone don't often describe geographic topography and so assert a flatness to the surface of this planet. Likewise this planet viewed from its moon would have the visual appearance of a disk. Is "The Earth is a flat disc" a helpful explanation for operating in the world? Not if you are a rocket scientist but it isn't a terrible model if you live an entire life within the vicinity of your family farm.

“All models are wrong, but some are useful”. George E. P. Box

https://www.lacan.upc.edu/admoreWeb/2018/05/all-models-are-w...

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#135

Post by User23 »

HPsquared wrote: post #29
BitwiseFool wrote: post #23

I've also noticed that the term "willful ignorance" gets thrown around a lot more nowadays. There is a sizeable contingent of people who are so convinced that what they believe is the absolute truth that any disagreement or critique must therefore be out of malice rather than genuine disagreement.

Most peoples' conclusions are based on some kind of logical deduction. Where people differ is the fundamental "beliefs" which are treated axiomatically (taken on faith) on which the logical superstructure is built. Edit: people also assign different "comparative value" to different things. Most value judgements involve comparing apples and oranges, but one person might have a preference for oranges and someone else m…

> Most peoples' conclusions are based on some kind of logical deduction. Where people differ is the fundamental "beliefs" which are treated axiomatically (taken on faith) on which the logical superstructure is built.

This doesn’t align very well with my observations. I can’t read minds so I don’t truly know anyone else’s beliefs. However, to the extent that I can infer possible beliefs from behavior, deductive or any other form of dialectic reasoning doesn’t appear to play much of a role. Social proof and other such phenomena appear to dominate belief formation.

I’ve found that an honest and rigorous examination of one’s own beliefs reveals that they are predominantly held for emotional reasons. Often it’s as simple as avoiding the emotional discomfort of being shunned for deviating from whatever your group’s particular dogma is.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#136

Post by Chris2048 »

feurio wrote: post #71
lnxg33k1 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an anti-woke, but also gave you a starting point which explains what woke is (or was?), but I'm afraid what I wrote is not something I can link, as I wrote it was middle pandemic and going back to find posts from back then is a bit time consuming for me, then you can believe it or not, that's your choice, but I am not sure what should I do here, I guess for in depth research you can also go around the web yourse…

Quoted post unavailable.

> Going by the accepted definition what you pointed me to

The article you were pointed to contained far more information than that.

Choosing to treat that one sentence as a strict definition doesn't really hold up.

Your last sentence sound like a personal attack, which makes me think you aren't arguing in good faith.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#137

Post by NoSorryCannot »

dfxm12 wrote: post #109
BitwiseFool wrote: post #23

I've also noticed that the term "willful ignorance" gets thrown around a lot more nowadays. There is a sizeable contingent of people who are so convinced that what they believe is the absolute truth that any disagreement or critique must therefore be out of malice rather than genuine disagreement.

Yes, and I think there are two things worth considering. First, people put their identities into their beliefs. Everything is a lifestyle choice anymore. What non-mainstream belief defines me as a person? When you make believing in the flat earth part of your identity, you get a fight or flight response when someone attacks the idea of the flat earth, because in a way, they are attacking you . Second, it's easy to co…

It's always a little frustrating to me to see this framed as some very recent thing to do with Twitter or whatever.

People have always folded beliefs into their identities and felt embarrassed or defensive when they are challenged. Most high-profile since forever is religion.

Which brings me to another frustration, when it's presumed that there is something wrong with beliefs being involved with identity. I'm not even sure what capital-I Identity is supposed to be if not a system of beliefs about yourself and the world and how they relate.

I don't think any of this is as new as it is often assumed to be. There appears to have been a rise in "identity politics" but even this is wrong; politics has always been about identity, it's just that nationalism or socialism or other principles can be part of someone's identity. Or in other words, they are beliefs.

So maybe we are more individualistic in our politics, and maybe that is bad. Or maybe it isn't... It's probably a mixed bag!

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#138

Post by krapp »

gorwell wrote: post #76
sleepingadmin wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I hadn't thought about it that way, but it certainly would explain his actions. You don't compromise with nazis after all. The question though, are these protests really what he has called them? Are they really a military occupation? >This would explain a lot about Trump too. He was in a misinformation bubble as well. 100% true. You will find even republican ideologues have called him out on many of his bullshit thi…

> The question though, are these protests really what he has called them? Are they really a military occupation? Definitely not. Every large scale protest has its provocateurs and outliers. Using the outliers to frame the 99% is dishonest to say the least. To any neutral observer they are overwhelmingly peaceful and represent the working class.

>To any neutral observer they are overwhelmingly peaceful and represent normal working class people.

This isn't a neutral observation. "overwhelmingly peaceful and represent normal working class people" exposes a politically-motivated bias.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#139

Post by [deleted] »

lnxg33k1 wrote: post #131
feurio wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that I am oversimplifying anything. Why are you conflating freedom of speech, moderation and censorship? Freedom of speech means the government won't come and arrest you for saying something. That's got nothing to do with wokeness or Twitter. Twitter (et al) are commercial businesses. They have terms of service and if you don't abide to them you get kicked. It's very simple. You're not paying for it - y…

If someone is denying the holocaust you don't give him a megaphone to express it, but you also talk to him and show him proof and surely you don't kill him or censor him or incarcerate him

[deleted]

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#140

Post by adolph »

ebiester wrote: post #64
Tycho wrote: post #3

“Misinformation” appears to be a term used by people who don’t want to take on the burden of proof when accusing someone of lying.

How do you take on the burden of proof to prove that high ranking US officials were not involved in an organized child-sex ring involving various pizza restaurants? Or any of the various other QAnon work.

> How do you take on the burden of proof to prove that high ranking US officials were not involved in an organized child-sex ring involving various pizza restaurants?

Especially after Epstein. Why would they bother with the pizza business? I guess to add some theory to the conspiracy?

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