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Ask HN: Burned Out. What Now?

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131–140 of 277 posts

Re: Ask HN: Burned Out. What Now?

#131
post #115
post #11

The bad news is it’s going to take a long time to heal. The good news is you can come back happier than you can imagine. In an ideal scenario you would quit working entirely to focus on your health, but I’m guessing this is not an option. You need to focus on the body first. The most important is sleep, but that is also difficult to address directly, so it’s best to focus on diet and exercise. You’ll likely have to d…

> For exercise, you just have to find something enjoyable enough to do I can't emphasise this enough, staying interested in doing gym exercise for the sake of fitness alone is not sustainable for most people - and boring even if you can. Exercise is an opportunity to find something physical you enjoy spending your time doing, and this can be as much a mental relief as a physical one. This is similar to how most of us…

Piling on here to add gym's dont have the monopoly on exercise!

Consider any of the following they all count:

* Hiking in the woods or parks

* Dancing lessons

* Running, Walking, inline skating, long boarding, bicycling, and really anything remotely similar

* martial arts in a dojo / club

* Strength training doing calisthenics at one of those outdoor gym things.

Keep in mind traditional strength training is great[1] for a number of reasons, but it's not the only way to get exercise.

[1]: dare i say superior due to it's muscle preserving and bone density effects? but getting overly picky about optimality can be a source of burnout in of itself.

Re: Ask HN: Burned Out. What Now?

#132
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For exercise, you just have to find something enjoyable enough to do I can't emphasise this enough, staying interested in doing gym exercise for the sake of fitness alone is not sustainable for most people - and boring even if you can. Exercise is an opportunity to find something physical you enjoy spending your time doing, and this can be as much a mental relief as a physical one. This is similar to how most of us…

agree completely. never into sports and absoutely hate gyms. but i started doing manual labor in a creative field, and getting around town using a bike and i'm much better for it.

curious: would mind describing exactly what kind of manual labor in a creative field?

Re: Ask HN: Burned Out. What Now?

#133
post #121
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At the end of the day, the business has to do the right thing for the organization, even when that's not to the benefit of an individual in the organization. How dystopian. When a colleague of mine burned out they talked to their boss and the boss assured them to take as much time as they needed. Then the boss made sure that everybody took as much load off of them as possible so they don't have to worry about proje…

How utopian. I manage a team with hundreds of engineers on it. If I have someone who is taking a year off (with pay I presume), I have to give their work to people. Once enough people do that, I have exhausted the capacity of the team and will surely see the team enter a spiral of burnout that I can only solve by adding dramatically more people or radically reducing our commitments. This will negatively affect our bu…

Maybe pitch less work for your team? Set more realistic goals ? Fight for them?

Not every business is a startup fighting to survive or grow like hell within a year. Some businesses have been around for decades and are in a comfortable place, they can very easily ramp up or down the amount of work they have to accomplish to keep talent happy.

And how can you manage hundreds of engineer?

Re: Ask HN: Burned Out. What Now?

#134
post #42

> Should I tell my boss and/or team? No, they will stab you in the back, no matter how much you think they won't. > Should I take time off? How much? Yes, if possible several months or a year so you have time to get fully away from the grind. > Is there something in my working environment I should try to change? Probably reduce the volume of work you are doing or do something that you care about more. > Is there anyt…

> > Should I take time off? How much? > Yes, if possible several months or a year so you have time to get fully away from the grind. I honestly do not know a single person who has the funds saved up to do this.

> I honestly do not know a single person who has the funds saved up to do this.

Consider that being burned out you don't have any upcoming funds anyway. If you force yourself to earn something, you just burn deeper, get fired or can't find work.

So it's lose-lose, and the best advice is just let it go and focus on your mental health.

Because without it there won't be any money anyway.

Lean on your friends, downsize, shed everything inessential, do what it takes. But don't force yourself to continue as is, it'll only make it worse in the end.

Re: Ask HN: Burned Out. What Now?

#135

See a psychologist and/or psychiatrist, seriously. You're dealing with your mental health here, don't rely on posts on the internet to handle a serious health problem. Burn out can easily spiral into something like clinical depression or anxiety disorders, and then you'll be dealing with the burden of burn out and additional health problems.

What about the post made you think they aren't seeking professional help?

Re: Ask HN: Burned Out. What Now?

#136
post #8

First, I'd highly recommend you get a Swedish massage. I know it sounds frivolous, but the massage will work like a magic pill on you right now. There's been some research on it – but basically persistent stress makes your body tense, and then even if your mental stress is gone, your body's tenseness keeps you on fight or flight mode. You shouldn't make any decisions in this mode. A 60 minute massage will untangle th…

If you can find bath houses (in SF there's a... Russian? bathhouse, in LA there's lots of Korean bath houses - Wi Spa is probably the most popular), you can combine both a spa day (hello hot/cold plunges!) with massages. Highly recommend the combination.

There are Korean and Japanese bathhouses in SF as well actually. Also a Korean one in San Leandro.

Re: Ask HN: Burned Out. What Now?

#137
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For exercise, you just have to find something enjoyable enough to do I can't emphasise this enough, staying interested in doing gym exercise for the sake of fitness alone is not sustainable for most people - and boring even if you can. Exercise is an opportunity to find something physical you enjoy spending your time doing, and this can be as much a mental relief as a physical one. This is similar to how most of us…

Piling on here to add gym's dont have the monopoly on exercise! Consider any of the following they all count: * Hiking in the woods or parks * Dancing lessons * Running, Walking, inline skating, long boarding, bicycling, and really anything remotely similar * martial arts in a dojo / club * Strength training doing calisthenics at one of those outdoor gym things. Keep in mind traditional strength training is great[1]…

My little anecdote:

I've personally found Rock Climbing to be extremely rewarding in highly varied ways - it is a very mental activity, problem solving, but in a physical and personal way that is not in conflict with relief from a cognitive job. It's physically one of the most balanced activities for the body. It can take you to truly awesome places and make you appreciate nature more. It has many sub styles, some with their own interesting mental challenges and techniques. You get a sense of adventure like no other... it's also just inherently damn fun to do, it's not unreasonable to say we have somewhat evolved for climbing - so it makes sense that we find it fun.

It's also a lot more accessible than it used to be. The easiest way to start would be indoor bouldering gyms (these have a fantastic social element too), and then indoor sports climbing gyms... just remember there is much more to be had from it than plastic, the outdoors awaits.

Re: Ask HN: Burned Out. What Now?

#138
I once worked at a job that was a 1 hour car commute or a 2 hour bike ride. I typically did the bike ride. Eventually work demands were intense and I felt like I needed the extra two hours. When leaving, I was given some of the best advice I had ever received. I was told that as soon as I started sacrificing those very long hours on bike, that my balance clearly went askew. That was the middle of a bad burn out. The advice was that work and life balance are connected, they are both gauges. Work always is a drag down, and your life being out of balance will drag both life and work down. The only way to increase both is to raise the life part of the equation. So while work will knock you down to 80%, having a life raises that back up to 90% so it can then go back down to 80% and repeat. Working better, harder, better projects (unless you are a founder or something special like that), never increases these gauges. So it's not a work/life balance per say, it's living life that allows you the capacity to do work at 100%.

Second, I've taken several extended breaks and they have helped. That was before pandemic. I found you need to take long enough where you start wanting to do work again. That is the sign burn out is over. How long that takes can really vary. Sometimes it's been 3 weeks, once it took 3 months, and another time it almost 6 months before I was ready to work again.

Some responses to your questions:

> If I continue working, is there something in my working environment I should try to change? Think of senior engineer in a typical DevOps-y SaaS startup.

Sometimes the key is to stop trying to change the things you cannot. Work is work, divorce yourself from some aspects of it and you will be freeing yourself from unnecessary stress of things you will not be able to change.

> Should I take time off? How much?

I'd say take a long weekend. See how much recovery that gives you. Maybe it'll give you a gauge of how long you will really need. My gut says at least 2 weeks.

> Is there anything specific to working in tech and burning out that I should know about? I feel like this isn't exactly rare.

This is a golden question. WTH do we all burn out so much?

Re: Ask HN: Burned Out. What Now?

#139
Disclaimer, I am not a doctor or a psychologist.

I have a contrarian opinion (that I have also posted here several times) that burnout is not merely a symptom of overwork but actually a symptom of missed behavioural prediction error: Your brain has taught itself that effort => failure, and so the motivation to put more effort into things is decreased.

The first step to understanding and overcoming it is a root cause analysis -- identify when you started putting in extra effort, what you thought you'd get out of it, and what you thought you'd get out of it that you didn't get. It might have been a promotion, a pay raise, a bonus, or social validation. Or, if there was a negative reinforcement that succeeded your valiant efforts (e.g. people shitting on your open-source project).

If you believe my thesis, then possibly the absolute worst thing you can do is to go on vacation right now (this is rewarding the cycle of not putting in effort). Rather, plan a vacation for yourself, say 3 months from now, (and if you want to be brutally effective, plan to cancel or bump the time of your vacation if you don't recover from burnout by then).

What you want to do from now till then is to build back up your work motivation. Work on a ton of tiny tasks that are almost certainly going to succeed, like that refactoring that you've put off, or writing tests. These are really good because they will give you primary stimulus (making those red dots go green) that provide you a pop of dopamine, rewarding you for the small amounts of work that you've done. Also, do small things, like "cook a meal" which take effort, and celebrate yourself for putting the effort into things, and meals are great because they are their own reward (unless you horribly mess it up).

I haven't generally burnt out (I have burnt out on individual projects) for more than about 2 weeks in a decade or so since I adopted this strategy.

Re: Ask HN: Burned Out. What Now?

#140
I agree with the statements above getting healthier and sleep.

What I did was quit for a year (I understand not everyone has the means). I told my boss I wanted to travel and I found it hard to balance it with work because my schedule is so unpredictable. He asked if I wanted a shorter sabbatical, and I said no because I had plans to places I wanted to travel throughout the year. I wanted to leave without burning bridges and we were slightly in a busy time, I said my quit date was flexible to whenever we get past the busy time.

I ended up splitting my year off at home and traveling. I previously backpacked parts of Asia for a month and found that going to country to country every few days to be overwhelming. So this time I would go some place on my bucket list and then come back to the US (such as spend a month driving around New Zealand and hiking for two weeks in Scotland). Again, I realize not everyone can do this, but to the extent you can/want to, think of things to knock off your bucket list.

After a year, my boss came back to me to ask if I was interested in coming back, which I did. I felt the year off helped cleared my head. Yes, you will get bored, but you will get some clarity. And since I have come back, I have been better of setting my schedule (it also helps that the office has expanded and I am no longer filling in every spot).

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