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Open Source Tax Software

ctskennerton.github.io

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Re: Open Source Tax Software

#131

Post by C19is20 »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #125
wahern wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some countries don't make you figure out things on your own: That's a bit like making a shopper put in the correct prices on each item they're buying and penalizing then for mistakes. A "Price is Right" game-show version of a tax filing system. The U.S. doesn't make you do this, either. Most people don't itemize deductions. You just plug in the data from your W-2. The percentage of people itemizing was 30%, but wit…

> You just plug in the data (..) Here in the Netherlands I don't have to plug in any data, everything is pre-filled. Income, bank accounts, mortgage, advances on deductions, etc. All you have to do is verify it (you can change things if necessary, but I've never had to do that). Takes about five minutes max.

Italy, same.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#132

Post by brynjolf »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #126
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You just plug in the data (..) Here in the Netherlands I don't have to plug in any data, everything is pre-filled. Income, bank accounts, mortgage, advances on deductions, etc. All you have to do is verify it (you can change things if necessary, but I've never had to do that). Takes about five minutes max.

If that were to happen in America, an entire industry would be put out of business.

Sounds like the industry is sustainable only due to it being an industry in the first place. Good riddance.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#133

Post by Vinnl »

ivolimmen wrote: post #79

I keep being perplexed by how the Americans do stuff. I am Dutch and my government makes it (relatively) easy to do taxes. We got a website we can go to; it's filled by the government and we just need to verify that it is filled correctly and then click submit. Some people can make adjustments where needed and if needed. You can also let an accountant do it for you but that is optional; but useful if you have had a t…

I think the Linux app was TCL/TK, so it looked hideous and quite out of place, but surprisingly was available and worked well. Although I think back then the application was only for filing though - pre-filling was added later.

Now with the website it's all much easier still though.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#134

Post by londons_explore »

aorth wrote: post #56
silisili wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny you mention that, the first time I tried to use Credit Karma Tax, either last year or the year before, they punted on me for having lived in two states. I agree with your sentiment, but not resolution. The truest resolution is in simplifying the tax code, which Intuit and co do not want. Edit to add: When CreditKarma gave up on me, I tried FreeTaxUsa. It sounds like a scam I know, but they are top notch, and ch…

> Edit to add: When CreditKarma gave up on me, I tried FreeTaxUsa. It sounds like a scam I know, but they are top notch, and cheap. Highly recommend. Ah! I remember FreeTaxUsa. They have this silly verification thing in their signup. Your email address must be on an "American" domain. Mine is self hosted on some other domain and they literally say it's "foreign". Just checked again and it's still there. Hah... sigh.

If getting an email address is too big a barrier for you... you might not be the target market.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#135

Post by aorth »

mro_name wrote: post #83
aorth wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Edit to add: When CreditKarma gave up on me, I tried FreeTaxUsa. It sounds like a scam I know, but they are top notch, and cheap. Highly recommend. Ah! I remember FreeTaxUsa. They have this silly verification thing in their signup. Your email address must be on an "American" domain. Mine is self hosted on some other domain and they literally say it's "foreign". Just checked again and it's still there. Hah... sigh.

did you contact them on that? What does an email prove anyway?

Ah, I just checked my records. I contacted them in 2021-02. Their response was:

> We prefer customers to attach email addresses from widely recognized providers for security purposes. Additionally, our servers have a hard time communicating with private email servers.

> You may create a new email address to handle your tax returns through FreeTaxUSA with a major provider.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#136

Post by aaaaahaaaaa »

amelius wrote: post #129
sofixa wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here in France, there's a website with a multi-stage form, with fields for various things ( revenues, deductions, etc.). Everything they know (revenues from employment, self-employment, investments via French entities, etc.) is pre-filled, you just have to check it, and if something is missing you add it. For 90% of people it's a matter of next-next-check this value with my payslip-next-next.

At what point will taxes be collected at the EU level?

They're not, EU doesn't collect taxes. It can however influence national tax policies.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#137

Post by hahamrfunnyguy »

ineedasername wrote: post #73
xivzgrev wrote: post #19

I worked on tax software and have seen these kind of efforts. Noble, yes. Short lived, yes. It’s relatively easy to make a free 1040 file. The real problem comes from all. The. Edge. Cases. 1) do you support xyz state? 2) what if I lived in multiple states? 3) what if i… And on and on. And it’s not just one and done. Every year IRS and states are changing their shit so you have to go thru and make all kind of updates…

Disruption could also come from tax reform. Some countries don't make you figure out things on your own: That's a bit like making a shopper put in the correct prices on each item they're buying and penalizing then for mistakes. A "Price is Right" game-show version of a tax filing system. Some other countries just tell you where you stand because for the vast majority of people a standard filing is all that's required…

Couldn't agree more. We need tax reform, not software. The returns should be file automatically, if we disagree we can fill out paperwork with what we should be getting.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#138

Post by U8dcN7vx »

cm2187 wrote: post #113
xivzgrev wrote: post #19

I worked on tax software and have seen these kind of efforts. Noble, yes. Short lived, yes. It’s relatively easy to make a free 1040 file. The real problem comes from all. The. Edge. Cases. 1) do you support xyz state? 2) what if I lived in multiple states? 3) what if i… And on and on. And it’s not just one and done. Every year IRS and states are changing their shit so you have to go thru and make all kind of updates…

Plus complex corporate taxation is one of these domains where the venn diagram of domain skills vs programming skills is completely disjoint. Tax specialists will model it in unnecessarily convoluted way in Excel, and the domain will be forever opaque to people who can produce software efficiently.

Then just personal. Yes business might finance development if business taxes were handled, so perhaps personal first or as an additional intention.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#139

Post by BiteCode_dev »

xivzgrev wrote: post #19

I worked on tax software and have seen these kind of efforts. Noble, yes. Short lived, yes. It’s relatively easy to make a free 1040 file. The real problem comes from all. The. Edge. Cases. 1) do you support xyz state? 2) what if I lived in multiple states? 3) what if i… And on and on. And it’s not just one and done. Every year IRS and states are changing their shit so you have to go thru and make all kind of updates…

The french initiative started in 2013 is still alive (last commit a few days ago), and passes the gov test suite (they keep in touch with our version of the IRS): https://github.com/openfisca/openfisca-france

The way we got this is interestingly twisted.

French citizens requested the software used by the administration, and they managed to get it!

But, it was written in Mlang, a proprietary language created by the french administration in the 90: https://github.com/MLanguage/mlang.

Someone then decided to create an OCaml compiler that takes mlang and emits python: https://arxiv.org/abs/2011.07966

As a result, we got Open Fisca. I now think there are other techs in the mix...

A slide of the story: https://www.slideshare.net/Etalab/opening-up-the-french-tax-...

But I believe it should be mandatory for the state to provide the source of every softwares they use internally to manage our lives. Also a test suite to allow any citizen to validate their own effort to comply with the law.

Just like laws should be published as diff of the previous laws, in a VCS repo.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#140

Post by qzw »

tzs wrote: post #118
qzw wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the only thing that can really disrupt this dynamic are “free” commercial software (like credit karma now cash app), or government provided. That’s why it was worth $7B for Intuit to acquire Credit Karma. They’re pretty aggressive about buying up potential disruptors.

Intuit didn’t get Credit Karma’s tax filing business. That got spun off and went to Square.

They don’t need it. The danger was always Credit Karma’s users + the tax business. The tax business by itself means little. Spinning it off even makes the deal look better to regulators.
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