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Apple’s device surveillance plan is a threat to user privacy – and press freedom

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Re: Apple’s device surveillance plan is a threat to user privacy – and press freedom

#131

Post by zepto »

jjcon wrote: post #65
cyanite wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since it’s speculation at this point, I’d say we deal with it if and when it happens. I also don’t see how this doesn’t apply even worse to doing cloud side scanning, like companies otherwise do. Is that out of control? Is there any evidence of that?

>I’d say we deal with it if and when it happens. By the time we know that it is happening it will be far more difficult to do something about it (see Snowden and the Patriot Act).

Now is the time to do something about it, but aiming at Apple is just an ineffective approach.

The only protection against future abuse, whether or not this mechanism is deployed, is a legal system that cares.

Re: Apple’s device surveillance plan is a threat to user privacy – and press freedom

#132

Post by zepto »

jjcon wrote: post #66
sparker72678 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How? I'd love to be convinced that this mechanism could be easily extended to any content at any time without it being totally obvious to the rest of us that it's being used that way.

Not OP and not speaking with any authority on this more just curious: If alongside this Apple rolled out the ability for them to initiate a scan on any phone for any thing (not a tool for mass surveillance but targeted surveillance) how would we know given Apples closed ecosystem? This doesn't necessarily speak to the issue here but more to the Apple ethos in general, but I am curious.

Good point, but equally if instead of this Apple rolled out the ability for them to initiate a scan on any phone for any thing (not a tool for mass surveillance but targeted surveillance) how would we know given Apples closed ecosystem?

Re: Apple’s device surveillance plan is a threat to user privacy – and press freedom

#133

Post by TimTheTinker »

zepto wrote: post #130
TimTheTinker wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2) Apple has trillions of dollars to lose by selling out to a shitty change like that. Apple has trillions to lose by building this system in the first place. All it takes is one court order to do non-CP scanning with the existing system .

It really doesn’t have much to lose. None of the non-tech people I have spoken to think of this as a bad thing.

My family, my wife's family, and much of our extended families are all privacy conscious (we chat over Signal, just like we close our window blinds at night)... and they are all alarmed over this and ready to ditch Apple if they don't change their stance on this.

All it takes is a wiretap warrant and Apple would have to scan on-device pictures and iMessages for whatever the wiretap says. This is true even if the phone has iCloud switched off (most of us already do), since all Apple has to do is change a Boolean variable's value, or something similar requiring no creative effort (and hence legally coercible).

Re: Apple’s device surveillance plan is a threat to user privacy – and press freedom

#134

Post by zepto »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #133
zepto wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really doesn’t have much to lose. None of the non-tech people I have spoken to think of this as a bad thing.

My family, my wife's family, and much of our extended families are all privacy conscious (we chat over Signal, just like we close our window blinds at night)... and they are all alarmed over this and ready to ditch Apple if they don't change their stance on this. All it takes is a wiretap warrant and Apple would have to scan on-device pictures and iMessages for whatever the wiretap says. This is true even if the phon…

> All it takes is a wiretap warrant and Apple would have to scan on-device pictures and iMessages for whatever the wiretap says.

This is total and utter bullshit. It is a complete misunderstanding of how the system works.

If you and your family think this is true, then of course you are alarmed.

Re: Apple’s device surveillance plan is a threat to user privacy – and press freedom

#135

Post by joe_the_user »

hda2 wrote: post #114
carom wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is disabled if you choose to not use iCloud.

For now.

Yes, the key thing is that today you have both Apple and Google (Android and Chrome) selling products where the hardware, the operating system, the local applications and cloud application are melded together (with MS getting closer to this).

As a practical matter, personal control is easiest and perhaps only possible on local machines where you load software you control. Apple and Microsoft have up to now felt somewhat constrained to sort-of maintain the formal situation that the user can run what they want locally and that the system/OS doesn't just make decisions for the user by fiat. But this particular action seems to imply a general "we'll change anything in the system according to our agenda" position, which understandably has many people upset (of course people should use Linux but that's a different step).

Re: Apple’s device surveillance plan is a threat to user privacy – and press freedom

#136

Post by TimTheTinker »

zepto wrote: post #134
TimTheTinker wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My family, my wife's family, and much of our extended families are all privacy conscious (we chat over Signal, just like we close our window blinds at night)... and they are all alarmed over this and ready to ditch Apple if they don't change their stance on this. All it takes is a wiretap warrant and Apple would have to scan on-device pictures and iMessages for whatever the wiretap says. This is true even if the phon…

> All it takes is a wiretap warrant and Apple would have to scan on-device pictures and iMessages for whatever the wiretap says. This is total and utter bullshit. It is a complete misunderstanding of how the system works. If you and your family think this is true, then of course you are alarmed.

> This is total and utter bullshit. It is a complete misunderstanding of how the system works.

No it's not. It's an extrapolation based on known facts.

Governments can and will coerce companies into changing things about their systems, but the main limitation is that at least in the US, the government can't coerce creative work.

But that's just the thing - flipping a bit here or there, or adding non-CSAM image hashes to the database, is all possible and accessible to wiretap warrants, since doing so is a simple change to a system that already exists.

There's a principle here: trust good security system design, but do not trust system operators, since they can be coerced (legally or otherwise). A secure system that requires trusting particular people who operate it is not designed well.

Re: Apple’s device surveillance plan is a threat to user privacy – and press freedom

#137

Post by 542458 »

techdragon wrote: post #112
542458 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real talk, a Raspberry Pi phone could be amazing. A $150 (or similarly low cost) hackable phone with a near-guaranteed solid community around it - I’d buy that. One of my big disappointments is that canonical decided to go super-premium with their attempt at phones. I wish Firefox OS had done better (the f0x phone in particular was incredibly cool) but they never managed to get the sort of community traction they nee…

Check out the PinePhone. While not exactly a “Raspberry Pi Phone” it’s pretty close to that in its basic concept.

Oh dang, for some reason I thought the PinePhone was a) an Android-based device and b) far more expensive than it actually is. Thank you very much for pointing it out and making me take a second look!

Re: Apple’s device surveillance plan is a threat to user privacy – and press freedom

#138

Post by fmajid »

simondotau wrote: post #116
hda2 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if those searches were conducted by another country? Say another five-eye nation?

By raising five-eyes, you are suggesting that another country could launder the request on behalf of the USA in order to circumvent the 4th Amendment. Okay then, let's play that out. Australia demands that Apple augment CSAM detection so that every iPhone in the USA starts scanning for (and reporting back to Australia about) some other set of images. There's absolutely no scenario where Apple wouldn't walk out of the…

Google and Facebook caved to Australia on its Murdoch-inspired racketeering, there is no evidence whatsoever of Apple having a stiffer spine. Australia also has some of the worst laws on Internet freedom and privacy in the world, not just in the West.

Also, the Australians would require Apple to use the Australian version of the NCMEC operated by their government. Remember, Apple only has the fingerprints of the CSAM files, not the actual files themselves (only the NCMEC can legally hold them), so they have no way to check whether the Australians inserted the fingerprints for the Afghanistan Papers to the database at the behest of their US buddies.

Re: Apple’s device surveillance plan is a threat to user privacy – and press freedom

#139

Post by fmajid »

simondotau wrote: post #117
techdragon wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very good breakdown of the situation. But cold comfort for anyone not in the USA. Because we know once Apple ships this it will be expanded to other countries with similar CSAM laws … many of which do not have robust Fourth Amendment type rights enshrined in their legal systems.

This is true, but there aren't many countries which Apple would even consider risking its global reputation in order to retain that market. US, China, Europe, maybe a couple of others. To begin with, there's no prospect of this being done in secret. So we're talking about Apple complying to demands being made in public. In the case of the EU, it would have to be passed into law in a way that makes equal demands upon…

National Security Letters or their foreign equivalents routinely come with gag orders.

Re: Apple’s device surveillance plan is a threat to user privacy – and press freedom

#140

Post by zepto »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #136
zepto wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All it takes is a wiretap warrant and Apple would have to scan on-device pictures and iMessages for whatever the wiretap says. This is total and utter bullshit. It is a complete misunderstanding of how the system works. If you and your family think this is true, then of course you are alarmed.

> This is total and utter bullshit. It is a complete misunderstanding of how the system works. No it's not. It's an extrapolation based on known facts. Governments can and will coerce companies into changing things about their systems, but the main limitation is that at least in the US, the government can't coerce creative work. But that's just the thing - flipping a bit here or there, or adding non-CSAM image hashes…

> It's an extrapolation based on known facts.

No it’s not. It’s bullshit based on a complete lack of understanding of the system.

Read any of the public documentation on how it works, and you’d know it’s completely wrong.

There are multiple good reasons to oppose this system. But this:

> All it takes is a wiretap warrant and Apple would have to scan on-device pictures and iMessages for whatever the wiretap says.

Is still complete bullshit. No part of it is true or an extrapolation of known facts. It’s neither true as a technical possibility not even as a legal one.

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