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For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

economist.com

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Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#131

Post by onion2k »

Cookingboy wrote: post #57

As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…

30 years ago people said it was human nature to socialize face-to-face, and that chatting on the Internet or playing video games with people remotely would never really catch on.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#132

Post by Cookingboy »

velcii wrote: post #106
Cookingboy wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's nothing magical about in-person communication. Other the fact that the brains of our entire specie has evolved for millions of years for this exact type of communication, there isn't anything magical, I guess... The information bandwidth of in-person communication is absolutely unparalleled, even if technology can now match in latency . Good luck replicating body language, eye contacts, subtle facial cues et…

>The information bandwidth of in-person communication is absolutely unparalleled Not really, if you are not interested in communicating emotions or not interested in playing politics as part of the said communication.. In fact, in technical discussion, not conveying too much emotion is a great advantage..

>In fact, in technical discussion, not conveying too much emotion is a great advantage..

But I'd just like to remind you that even the most hardcore engineering company cannot possibly having only technical discussions.

This really reminds me that how often HN miss the forest for the tree.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#133

Post by nextlevelwizard »

I can't wait to get back to the office.

I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that)

It also helps with my physical fitness. Now it is super hard to go to the gym in the morning just to come back home. When I commuted to work the gym was just on the way and it was easy to get out of the bed and go work out.

Food is also big draw. Now I have to worry about what I eat every day and make my food. That's extra stress and cognitive pressure that is completely avoided when I get to just eat lunch from office's cafeteria.

And of course other social aspects i.e. since I am already outside it is easier to do other stuff, but when I'm still in my underpants at home after work it is way harder to dress up and go do stuff.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#134

Post by nicoburns »

mojuba wrote: post #56

Didn't read the article - no access, just some thoughts: the downward pressure on wages will probably become a norm for WFH. Google has already set a precedent. However, unless it takes another unexpected turn, WFH is win-win-win: companies can save on office space and a bit on reduced salaries too; employees will have a healthier life and the freedom to live in cheaper locations; and finally WFH is good for the envi…

> the downward pressure on wages will probably become a norm for WFH

That depends on where you live. If you live a population center that currently has very high wages then yes. Otherwise you've just potentially gotten access to much higher paying jobs than you would've had access to before.

So what we should see is a geographical evening of wages. Which I can only really see as a good thing.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#135

Post by peakaboo »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #115
peakaboo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a proper slave mentality right there. I suggest you instead think like this "what will I do to continue working remotely? Which company will I pick?".

And what if the only remote working option is to get paid less? Is that still "slave mentality"?

Getting payed less is an idiotic thing. You use LESS resources working remotely. I suggest you use that statement as a screener for finding companies worth your time.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#136

Post by ridaj »

dan-robertson wrote: post #65
oblio wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, that's easy. The negotiating power of a company, which is practically a group of people, is much higher than that of employees, which are just 1 person. A big company loses what? 0.00001% of its revenue if it doesn't hire the right person for a specific position? An employee loses 100% of their revenue if they don't get hired or get fired. So companies can pretty much do what they want (up to a point where they c…

I feel like this underestimates the cost of someone leaving. Presumably that person was worth the money and necessary before and will need to be replaced. The replacement will be less valuable (lacking the relevant knowledge) and cost a lot of money to recruit. I think companies often undervalue the cost of annoying employees in random trivial ways, creating the nudge that causes them to shop around for another job.…

Nobody wants attrition, but it does happens. In the long term competition for WFH jobs is basically by timezone rather than by geo area. That means as an employee you're competing against a bigger talent pool, and as the workforce renews itself, we should expect a trend towards equalization of pay across WFH roles in the same timezone.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#137

Post by heavyset_go »

oblio wrote: post #41
BrissyCoder wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get your reasoning on why you expect that people will have to take a pay cut for working remotely. Would have thought it would be the opposite. Office space, hardware and energy cost a bit.

Ah, that's easy. The negotiating power of a company, which is practically a group of people, is much higher than that of employees, which are just 1 person. A big company loses what? 0.00001% of its revenue if it doesn't hire the right person for a specific position? An employee loses 100% of their revenue if they don't get hired or get fired. So companies can pretty much do what they want (up to a point where they c…

This is why it's important to negotiate as a group and to consolidate interests, because that's just what individual owners of big companies did by incorporating.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#138

Post by celticninja »

dheera wrote: post #125
mojuba wrote: post #56

Didn't read the article - no access, just some thoughts: the downward pressure on wages will probably become a norm for WFH. Google has already set a precedent. However, unless it takes another unexpected turn, WFH is win-win-win: companies can save on office space and a bit on reduced salaries too; employees will have a healthier life and the freedom to live in cheaper locations; and finally WFH is good for the envi…

> Didn't read the article - no access https://outline.com/8pMDCv Maybe HN should start banning paywall links. It greatly degrades the experience of HN if you can't access half the stuff on the front page by just clicking on it.

I think the preferred method is to link the paywall and add an archive link in the comments.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#139

Post by Teever »

Cookingboy wrote: post #104
Teever wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. As a person who lives in a geologically stable region I have to chuckle because it is entirely possible that this comment will age as terribly as that 'which country is best equipped to deal with a pandemic (2019) post that we saw recently. I don't deny the part of your comment about in person interactions being the foundat…

>all that is overridden by the notion that this must take place in Silicon Valley. No you are missing the point. I never said it has to be in Silicon Valley. It's already happening in many places in the world. Google has offices in Silicon Valley and many other parts of the world, and the value the bring is the same: bring people who work together physically together.

I never said that it has to be in Silicon Valley either. I'm pointing out that it is in Silicon Valley and that this is a particular fault with these big companies that seem to be resisting a distributed work force.

Why are these large companies choosing to concentrate their work force in a geologically precarious location when their employees are telling them that they would rather work in a distributed fashion?

It all just seem so short-sighted to me.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#140

Post by oblio »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #51
oblio wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, that's easy. The negotiating power of a company, which is practically a group of people, is much higher than that of employees, which are just 1 person. A big company loses what? 0.00001% of its revenue if it doesn't hire the right person for a specific position? An employee loses 100% of their revenue if they don't get hired or get fired. So companies can pretty much do what they want (up to a point where they c…

This is mistaken. Companies need good employees, and particularly skilled developers. If you're a skilled developer, I urge you to exercise your negotiation power. You have much more than you think. The problem is, most people aren't willing to walk from job offers. Walk. There are more.

This depends on so, so many personal and professional factors:

1. Your line of development is popular (I wish PL/I developers good luck with their job searches!)

2. That you're geographically located in a "hot" location and you can easily relocate (which is frequently not the case, due to family concerns or other concerns) > you like remote work and are good at it.

3. That you can easily handle interview stress (a ton of people can't) and that you're good at interviewing (which you can improve at, but you need to spend time, plus see: stress).

I'm probably forgetting a bunch.

In any case, the balance is tilted a lot more towards big companies.

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