FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars • Hacker News Board

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#131

Post by austincheney » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

bobbyi_settv wrote: post #36

ketzo wrote: post #4

I’m extremely in favor of harm-reduction legislation in general, and I think this ban is a good idea overall. Flavors are effective at hooking young people in particular — lots of vaping research has shown that — and so get it outta here. Great. But man, “ban menthols because Black people like them” sure feels a little weird. Like, I get that’s not exactly what’s going on. But.. it’s a little bit what’s going on? I g…

As the press release says, menthol was "the last allowable flavor". It's not the government banning one specific flavor because it is popular with black people. It is the government first banning every flavor except the one popular with black people and now circling back to make the rules uniform.

No, the press release does specifically target black people:

> One studyExternal Link Disclaimer suggests that banning menthol cigarettes in the U.S. would lead an additional 923,000 smokers to quit, including 230,000 African Americans in the first 13 to 17 months after a ban goes into effect. An earlier studyExternal Link Disclaimer projected that about 633,000 deaths would be averted, including about 237,000 deaths averted for African Americans.

Then they go on to rationalize those positions about African Americans because that progress hasn’t been experienced by everyone equally.

I am not stating any position whether specifically targeting black people in this ban is good or bad. I am only pointing out that this group is specifically mentioned in the press release.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#132

Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #34

awillen wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because our tax dollars pay for Medicare/Medicaid, so for those people who don't have private insurance, they're saddling society with the costs of their choices. In general I lean libertarian and agree that banning things isn't great, but if you want to make your own choices, you have to bear the costs of those choices. If you want to waive your right to government funded healthcare, then you ought to be able to mak…

That’s the problem with socialized medicine. Once you institute it now your body belongs to the state. You’re not allowed to put something deemed bad in your body because the “people” have to pay for it. Prohibition is wrong. It’s not just unethical but impractical. And congrats, now cops aren’t just going to claim they smell weed in my car, they’re going to claim they smell menthol too. — Also your “waive your right…

Perhaps there should be a way to opt out of taxpayer subsidized healthcare if you smoke, eat excess sugar/carbs, drink alcohol, smoke crack, etc.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#133

Post by LargeWu » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

chmod600 wrote: post #67

LargeWu wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a more accurate way of framing it is "Menthols have been targeted specifically to black people, and also, they're even more harmful than regular cigarettes". It's definitely not "let's take this away because black people like it".

When paternalistic policies are directed at particular demographics, it is kinda disturbing. I mean, sure, there's a reason. But there always is, and it makes me wonder if a line is being crossed here that will set a bad precedent.

The entire "paternalistic" argument rests on the premise that the choice to smoke, or not, is for most people purely rational, and totally discounts the predatory nature of tobacco companies and the addiction that comes with it. Menthols are targeted at blacks, and especially black children, since the menthol flavoring makes them more pleasant to smoke. Of the 20 million American menthol smokers, 17 million of those are black. That's not by accident, it's intentional.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#134

Post by catillac » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #100

jolux wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tobacco is vastly more harmful than marijuana. I don't necessarily agree with the justification but I don't think these positions are inconsistent.

I don’t have a strong opinion either way, but you could just ban both things you know.

We should consider risk versus reward though, not just harmful effects, buttressed by some measure of individual liberty.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#135

Post by jolux » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #118

jolux wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tobacco is vastly more harmful than marijuana. I don't necessarily agree with the justification but I don't think these positions are inconsistent.

What is inconsistent is not banning alcohol, since it by far causes more harm than marijuana or menthol.

Agreed. Unfortunately the social perception of alcohol is still at a place where banning it would be impossible, though. People don't even want to talk about making it more expensive. Alcohol still doesn't have nutritional labels in the US!

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#136

Post by heavyset_go » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

veilrap wrote: post #8

This just feels like a continuation of the failed war on drugs... I don't smoke, but I have no problem with allowing people to do so in private spaces. Why do we insist on micromanaging peoples lives?

There's a huge difference between regulation and criminalization.

I think you'd find that most people who support abolishing the war on drugs, and who support drug legalization, are also supportive of regulation the legalized drugs.

The lack of regulation and criminalization are two reasons that the US has a fentanyl epidemic. It's too risky to import heroin because it weighs a lot, while 1 gram of fentanyl is 10,000+ doses.

Meanwhile, regulated heroin that's used in hospitals is pure and free of adulterants.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#137

Post by stefan_ » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

lainga wrote: post #56

nanidin wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a public health issue on the same order of magnitude as COVID-19, but happening every year: “Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including more than 41,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure. This is about one in five deaths annually, or 1,300 deaths every day.” [0] [0] https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast...

Is there an active or other ingredient in tobacco that makes its smoke more harmful than cannabis? Or is it the method of ingestion?

Nicotine is a harmless nootropic on the level of caffeine, it's inhaling combustion products that is the big problem.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#138

Post by __blockcipher__ » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:30 PM UTC

throwawayboise wrote: post #89

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are menthol cigarettes more harmful than regular ones? The menthol just makes it easier to smoke more. Is that the crux of your argument? I find the “company X is targeting [arbitrary subcategory]” argument to be totally asinine btw. Is Krispy Kreme targeting fat people by offering free donuts for people that get COVID-19 vaccines? Lastly there is nothing more patronizing than telling a black person that you’re p…

> Is Krispy Kreme targeting fat people by offering free donuts for people that get COVID-19 vaccines? LOL are they really doing that? That's funny considering that obesity and diabetes are both risk factors for poor COVID-19 outcomes.

Welcome to the new world ;)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7ny.com/amp/free-food-vaccin...

You actually get a donut per day! The foundation of a healthy diet.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#139

Post by nicoburns » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:30 PM UTC

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #34

awillen wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because our tax dollars pay for Medicare/Medicaid, so for those people who don't have private insurance, they're saddling society with the costs of their choices. In general I lean libertarian and agree that banning things isn't great, but if you want to make your own choices, you have to bear the costs of those choices. If you want to waive your right to government funded healthcare, then you ought to be able to mak…

That’s the problem with socialized medicine. Once you institute it now your body belongs to the state. You’re not allowed to put something deemed bad in your body because the “people” have to pay for it. Prohibition is wrong. It’s not just unethical but impractical. And congrats, now cops aren’t just going to claim they smell weed in my car, they’re going to claim they smell menthol too. — Also your “waive your right…

What makes sense is to socialise medicine, and then have the body responsible for running that:

1. Run public health awareness campaigns to make sure that people (especially children / young people) are aware of the health risks. You can do similar things around healthy eating.

2. Treat drug usage and addiction as medical rather than criminal issue (so the police might confiscate your weed if they catch you with it, but they won't charge you with anything).

Both of these minimise healthcare costs without actually banning anything.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#140

Post by CivBase » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:30 PM UTC

nanidin wrote: post #31

veilrap wrote: post #8

This just feels like a continuation of the failed war on drugs... I don't smoke, but I have no problem with allowing people to do so in private spaces. Why do we insist on micromanaging peoples lives?

It’s a public health issue on the same order of magnitude as COVID-19, but happening every year: “Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including more than 41,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure. This is about one in five deaths annually, or 1,300 deaths every day.” [0] [0] https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast...

Is it, though?

COVID-19 is scary because you can't reasonably eliminate your risk of contracting it without significant mental, social, and economic sacrifice. But I'm not worried about getting lung cancer because I just don't smoke. You can't just accidentally give lung cancer or a nicotine addiction to someone at a social gathering.

It's impossible to smoke in the United States without knowing the addictive and carcinogenic nature of it. The warnings are plastered all over the ads, the counter, and the product itself. If you know all that and still choose to smoke, that's on you. People take risks with their lives for things that make them happy all the time. As long as you know the risks up front and you aren't bothering me with it, why should I care?