Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech • Hacker News Board

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#131

Post by jefftk » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:09 AM UTC

jdgoesmarching wrote: post #114

mavelikara wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it's not testing for anything real. You are too quick to dismiss the study, I think. What the study shows, I think, is that other things being equal the person who sounds to be from higher class is likely to get the job. The study simulates the other things being equal scenario by eliminating all other avenues for the hiring manager to judge. Here is the quote from the TFA, lightly edited for emphasis: The study…

This is how research works, you isolate variables. By OP’s logic science is never testing for anything “real.” I’m not surprised that HN rushes to discredit the idea that hiring is not a perfect meritocracy, but this is kinda silly.

But this is also not how isolating variables works. If you give someone no information, and require them to make a decision based only on speech patterns, that does not actually tell you very much about how they would make a decision if they had lots of information including speech patterns. Compare:

a) only speech

b) lots of complex skills-based information that is (verified in a separate experiment) equivalent on balance, plus also speech

It's quite possible that you could see a large difference in decisions in (a) without any detectable difference in (b).

For example, imagine in this study hiring managers are (perhaps subconsciously) estimating education level from speech. If they already have lots of details about candidate's education, that "screens out" the rough proxy of their speech patterns.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#132

Post by splitstud » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:10 AM UTC

jdgoesmarching wrote: post #114

mavelikara wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it's not testing for anything real. You are too quick to dismiss the study, I think. What the study shows, I think, is that other things being equal the person who sounds to be from higher class is likely to get the job. The study simulates the other things being equal scenario by eliminating all other avenues for the hiring manager to judge. Here is the quote from the TFA, lightly edited for emphasis: The study…

This is how research works, you isolate variables. By OP’s logic science is never testing for anything “real.” I’m not surprised that HN rushes to discredit the idea that hiring is not a perfect meritocracy, but this is kinda silly.

Questioning the validity of the isolation, and conclusions drawn from the result is how science works.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#133

Post by the_only_law » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:12 AM UTC

So then what’s the easiest way to drop an unattractive accent quickly. As much as I would rather hack my way around the bigots it’s probably more realistic for me to blend with them.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#134

Post by splitstud » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:15 AM UTC

vmception wrote: post #3

I think US-bias is more so class bias than race bias and this comes with a 99% correlation to racial discrimination due to the half millenium of directly ensuring certain races could not access the economy or capital or literacy. Racial discrimination also occurs. A lot of support for racial equality is lost because it is too reductive and invalidates the experience of potential allies in the majority power who exper…

Or, your assumptions of values, ethics, and how humans function is twisted in a knot. Humans are built to synthesize multitudes of facts, signals, etc using a rubric of experience. The result is imperfect.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#135

Post by AnthonyMouse » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:19 AM UTC

TameAntelope wrote: post #37

twic wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of support for racial equality is lost because it is too reductive and invalidates the experience of potential allies in the majority There was a study on that recently: https://osf.io/tdkf3/

I've got a lot of problems with this work, but I think I can best summarize my issues with the question: Who are the "Democratic elites"? A list of "Democratic politicians" and quotes from them is given, but I'm curious if that's the full summation of who the "elites" are, or if there are other, thus far unnamed "elites". I can't think of a better example, but this reminds me of some of the papers on skull size from…

> The whole, "We should trick white people into being kinder to minorities" argument is, frankly, insulting to white people, among many other not-very-noble things. White people should be able to hear arguments about racial inequality without losing their collective minds.

I think this is missing the problem with that framing.

You're kind of assuming that the reason people oppose a bill purported to solve a problem for minorities is that they hate black people and want them to be miserable.

Suppose you're a white fisherman just scraping by on the Gulf Coast. Things are bad. You wish something would change.

The media reports there is a bill being debated in Congress. It's a thousand pages long and you don't understand it, but they say its purpose is to help black people. Gosh, you wish they would do something that would help you for once. Probably going to raise your taxes to pay for it, too. This bill sucks.

Compare this to saying that the bill is to help working class people. Hey, working class, that's you! Finally!

It's the same bill. It helps black people because they're disproportionately working class. To specifically tell other working class people that it's only meant to help someone else is how you destroy solidarity. It's what you do if you want them to fight each other even though they have a shared interest.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#136

Post by motohagiography » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:24 AM UTC

So, slight devils advocate, but there are some economics at play as well. If someone presents themselves as having a lot of options, and they've chosen the field you are interviewing them for, they're probably pretty good at it - because to have options, they must be. It signals a bargaining position.

The other piece is that few people understand what elite competition really is. You don't just act a certain way or have certain taste, collect some symbols, and then you win.

In olympic sports, the competitors are at super human levels to qualify, and yet the margins of victory and loss between them are tiny. Milliseconds, milimeters, grams. That difference of performance in the moment is the effect of a training trajectory of months and years that culminates in what is essentially a psychological advantage in the moment of performance. That's pretty close to what class is. It's the effect of a long trajectory.

People who train don't take big risks, they develop technique so they don't lose a season to an injury. Similarly, the advantage of class means you never have to bet what you couldn't afford to lose, which makes you a safer bet in a corporate interview situation.

It doesn't sound very equitable, but if you can't easily fake it, it may actually be an honest signal.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#137

Post by golemiprague » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:25 AM UTC

metiscus wrote: post #53

flavius29663 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as a white that grew up very very poor, I can't possibly understand why so many black people try to convince me that I'm guilty of white privilege, when most of them had many more resources growing up.

It isn't my argument, but as I try to understand all sides I'll do my best to explain the position anyway. The idea goes something like this. You have white privilege because you are visibly white. By being visibly white you gain an automatic differentiation from those who are non-white. The belief is that the system, being largely run by white people will extend courtesy and nicer treatment to those who look like it…

I don't think he argued that by being white he might have some advantages, although it can be argued especially these days. His point was that there are million of other parameters that can affect ones life experience, so why just one advantage in the skin colour department makes him priviliged when he had so many other disadvantages in other departments.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#138

Post by Nasrudith » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:27 AM UTC

DenisM wrote: post #80

vmception wrote: post #3

I think US-bias is more so class bias than race bias and this comes with a 99% correlation to racial discrimination due to the half millenium of directly ensuring certain races could not access the economy or capital or literacy. Racial discrimination also occurs. A lot of support for racial equality is lost because it is too reductive and invalidates the experience of potential allies in the majority power who exper…

I must say it also looks rather beneficial to some - while the lower classes are duking it out over a divisive issue the upper classes are safe from social reform. Divide and rule.

Why would all social classes be the same in motivations and goals? You can never trust the "loyalty" of groups they never signed up for.

A mining company owner, a wall street trader, a tech start up millionaire, a head partner of a law firm and old-money heir(ess) would all have different interests and goals. The same goes for lower classes as well.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#139

Post by CryptoPunk » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:28 AM UTC

Social class may very well be highly correlated with competency - even moreso than any other information a hiring manager may have access to - and therefore a good indicator for a hiring manager to use.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#140

Post by Nasrudith » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:34 AM UTC

motoxpro wrote: post #45

throwawayboise wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but this illustrates that it's possible to make changes in how you present yourself to overcome potential class biases. This levels the playing field a lot. And why shouldn't people seeking higher status jobs or education be expected to present and conduct themselves accordingly?

"Don't speak like you, speak like me"

Most people are downright hackable and consistently bugged to that effect regardless of strata. Low key mannerism mimicry (not obvious enough to make it look like you are mocking them) consistently gets you received better along with "proper faking" of desired emotions. For some dumb reason they think "proving they can change their apparent true selves on a whim" means they are more trustworthy instead of less.