How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany • Hacker News Board

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#131

Post by csomar » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 4:13 PM UTC

lbrito wrote: post #14

sdevonoes wrote: post #8

> To sum up: if you are single and opt for "live cool and don't care about expenses" style, then an average developer salary will be enough (it might be harder if you have a family to feed). > On the other hand, if you choose to go the student-like route (living in Wohngemeinschaft and not eating out too much), you can easily manage with just 1.200-1.500 EUR per month, and save the majority of your salary. I know it…

I assume engineering positions are on the top bracket of salary distribution. If not even this is enough to pursue home ownership, what kind of people are able to afford a house? Honest question.

1- By living with roommates and renting a room (sometimes half a room).

2- By taking painfully long commutes to cheaper locations.

3- By living with parents/partner. This is not an option for most people, but probably what makes moving to a job a difficult situation.

> what kind of people are able to afford a house?

Apparently, half of Germany can't afford a home.

- https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-ra...

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#132

Post by luckylion » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

ecnerwala wrote: post #57

sdevonoes wrote: post #8

> To sum up: if you are single and opt for "live cool and don't care about expenses" style, then an average developer salary will be enough (it might be harder if you have a family to feed). > On the other hand, if you choose to go the student-like route (living in Wohngemeinschaft and not eating out too much), you can easily manage with just 1.200-1.500 EUR per month, and save the majority of your salary. I know it…

Its not an unpopular opinion in my book. The first sentence, especially the "it might be harder if you have a family to feed", is distressing. If an average developer salary is not enough to do that, then, what are the jobs that DO allow you that ?

> If an average developer salary is not enough to do that, then, what are the jobs that DO allow you that ?

Don't believe the hype. The average developer salary is enough to feed a family of four, you just won't be able to buy a house in a sought-after suburb on a single salary.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#133

Post by jsdwarf » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

dnate wrote: post #6

thanato0s wrote: post #4

Leaving in Germany for 6 years. Moved from France. What I'll say only concern Berlin. The interview process in startup can be more draining than that. Currently, it's more like 4 / 5 steps with (sometimes) 6+ hours homework. Yik. 60k is more for senior developers. Junior get less. Other than that the cost of living in Germany is quite low (lower in Berlin than in the South) and it's a very nice and stable country.

I just got a 6 figure non-senior position in Berlin. Sent out close to 100 applications and went into interview processes at around 30 places. 80-90k is definitely doable if you are good and take your time (I was looking for 3-4 months). You need to filter beforehand for salary. Most places expect to pay around 60-70k max. But getting the higher salary is more a matter of finding the company willing to pay it than ju…

Maybe it is an "ALDI" job. Aldi is known for overpaying their shopkeepers by about 30%, but expects them to do the work of at least 2 shopkeepers at other stores. Still makes sense from a business side.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#134

Post by sneak » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

gigatexal wrote: post #55

sneak wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you worry about getting shot in the US?

Yes. In Portland where I lived we didn’t make enough to live in the nicer parts of town so we lived in the north east near Gresham and crime was a problem out there. Lots of gang violence. My comment was a bit flippant. But it was something I thought about from time to time. Here not at all.

Well, for some additional anecdata: I've been mugged/attacked twice as much in Berlin (where I live) than I was in Detroit (where I grew up).

I think perhaps the perception of risk in the US is blown way out of proportion due to the media frenzy around shootings, which are still pretty rare overall in the US. If you consume mass media, you will generally overestimate the risk by several orders of magnitude. (This is, for example, why many Europeans believe the stereotype that the US is so dangerous, when the vast majority of it is actually much safer wrt violent crime than most large cities in Europe.)

If you were afraid there, you should be afraid here. (I personally don't think you should be afraid in either place.)

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#135

Post by k__ » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

lacker wrote: post #123

The salaries seem really low. The absolute highest paying job listed on their site is a 110,000 euro salary, but you can get more than that with zero experience in California. I wonder if it would be better for software engineers in Germany to simply get remote working jobs for US companies.

That's how I do it. Works well.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#136

Post by distances » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #67

estaseuropano wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also have 38h/weeks, 20+ holiday days per year, actual free weekends, many free public services, affordable healthcare with fair insurance that doesn't try to bankrupt you, ... So it balances out. How much do you have to save per month for that 200k health emergency in the US? In Germany - 0€. If you want to get rich either be a founder or go to the US for a chance at that. If you want a good and happy life with…

Yeah, I should have been clearer. I'm not trying to litigate the US vs. Europe debate, which I think has been discussed many times. My question more was about within Europe, the relative attractiveness of software vs other professional fields. Median incomes in Germany are about 25% lower than the US. Yet SWE compensation seems to be 50%+ lower than the US equivalent. That would suggest that other skilled professions…

All skilled professions have lower pay in Europe, there isn't a "get rich" path. Doctors usually earn more but nowhere near US levels.

For me, I can say I didn't consider salary when choosing my field. It's just not a common concern, you're expected to study something you're good at and would enjoy doing. Medical and law were definitely not even remote thoughts for me.

It was a happy accident that software engineers are paid so well (relatively). I suppose I just assumed all MSc fields are roughly equal and quite acceptable as far as salary goes.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#137

Post by k__ » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

greatgib wrote: post #129

All in this article looked standard up to the point where I discoved that: "This is assuming that you are single and not a church member, because there is an extra tax (around 9% of your income tax) if you belong to one." Wtf germany? I have found more info: https://www.nomadenberlin.com/blog2/german-church-tax-kirche... it is a complete non-sense to me, if ever you wanted to give, why you are not allowed to decide t…

Yes, it's strange.

But many of my millenial friends aren't even baptized, so they don't have to pay the tax. Also, you can "leave" a church any time you want.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#138

Post by corty » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

archi42 wrote: post #72

estaseuropano wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Price/sq meter varies between 100-2000€, so it really depends on your region, lifestyle and choices. If you have a normal salary (or both working) you can afford a small house. Mortgages also tend to be reasonable in Germany.

I think the 100 is a typo? :P [as in "... varies between 100-2000€..."] I'm currently looking for a house in SW Germany, near the french border. I'd be happy if prices would max out at 2000€/m². I can not renovate a full building (both time and skill-wise), so - including necessary improvements - houses we're looking at start at about 1800€/m² and surpass 2200€/m². And we're not talking about "center of town" here or…

I don't think it is a typo. There are areas out in the sticks where nobody wants to move (because no internet, no mobile reception, no public transport, next city is 50km away, next supermarket 20km), where 100€/m² is possible.

But anything marginally close to a railway track, Autobahn or federal road or any bigger city at all is far more expensive.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#139

Post by distances » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 4:22 PM UTC

jamil7 wrote: post #127

distances wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They probably mean the hassle of monthly taxes and finding multiple clients per year.

Yeah monthly taxes for the first year is a pain although it goes down to quarterly after that. It also makes it harder to get a mortgage and that you will likely not be picked when looking to rent a flat over employed people. There are also uncertainties around how long and how much you can work for a single client without causing issues for your client, although I usually don’t do contracts longer than 6mo. I think…

Definitely, I'm also freelancing in Germany and wouldn't go back to salaried for now. I didn't know the details of the multiple client requirement for my first year, let's see if that comes back to bite me at some point.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#140

Post by light_hue_1 » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

Any time these guides come up they are simply shocking. I love Europe, I grew up there. I don't understand why anyone would stay as a developer in the EU. Software is simply not valued.

Dev salaries are astounding. Senior engineers in the EU make less than entry level undergrads in the US or Canada. 60k Euros is 70k USD. People out of bootcamps with zero experience make more than that in the US. I don't have a single friend from university that I remember making less than 100k upon graduation. Mid-career salaries with bonuses and stock are 200k+.

I'm afraid that until things radically change in the EU we'll always have US tech giants. Living in the EU isn't worth a 4x pay cut for many people.