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Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

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131–140 of 256 posts

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#131

Sounds cool. Can I sum it up as Aviron is the peloton of the community and Hydrow is the Zwift? The difference being Zwift caters to people who are already vested and more hardcore in some ways where as peloton is the general public who want to try and get a quick good workout? Also - if you are following the peloton model - how are you going to build out the celebrity following for your athletes? I think that is one…

Also please don't follow pelotons somewhat annoying business model and force people to shell out a lot for the hardware product and continue to force them on high monthlies.

Am interested in your product though - quick high intensity workout.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#132
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

fwiw i'm actually not a former rower and I just purchased a C2 after some very light research. It's the industry standard, it's relatively cheap, and ALL of the apps are specifically designed or have have seamless integration with the C2.

It is a great machine - I have one too :)

sweet. If you develop an app that integrates with the C2, I will be your first paying user to try it.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#133
post #116

I might be the target market for this. I have a Concept 2 at a house I go to a couple times a year for up to a month each time. My normal cardio is a standard treadmill at the gym, and I bought the C2 because a serious treadmill wouldn’t work at that location. It has been really hard to get into the rowing thing. I’ve never done crew so there’s no external context for me. I find it’s a great way to get the heart rate…

What you're describing really resonates with me - I knew it was a good workout but staying on for any length of time is challenging if you're not a "rower". The experience the content provides is what keeps our customers getting back on the machine every day and why we took the direction we did with Aviron. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#134
post #121

I've always heard you can hurt yourself badly if your form isn't perfect, esp your back. True? If so, how do you help people maintain good form and not screw up their back?

Like with any workout injuries are always a possibility. We do our best to mitigate this with instructional videos for novice users and automated feedback (for example when the user is going too fast). That being said, stationary rowing machines, found in gyms or homes are not generally associated with a high risk for injuries.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#136
I'm really glad to see this product. I'm also more tech than fitness, but I try to get in a quick row or treadmill run every day.

In my case, I purchased a Concept 2 a couple years ago, not because I'm a rowing enthusiast but because "best rowing machine" seemed to point to it and it cost less than my treadmill =P

I found a mount online for the Concept 2 that can attach my iPad and the last few weeks I've been using Apple Fitness+, but the select is really limited. Also, like all Apple Fitness+ programs, there is currently no feedback between what I'm doing and what the program is asking/pushing me to do, which is disappointing.

I probably won't purchase your product in the near future, given that I have a semi-working solution today. But I will encourage other folks to check it out if they are in the market for a rowing machine. And if you decide to go pursue a strictly software/services solution, I absolutely would run your programs on my iPad while I row on my Concept 2 :)

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#138
post #26

> I feel like sometimes this pisses the hardcore rowers off but I’m not a rower, I’m a tech guy. I also think fitness is important and have been working out all of my adult life. Some other comments have mentioned the Concept 2 and how it's the standard. It sounds like you're actually targeting non-rowers who want a Peloton-like experience. (Sort of like how Peloton doesn't really target the cycling community). Is th…

Just for context, standard is defined on two fronts. 1. Each machine computes effective Watts differently, so pulling your guts out might be 1kW on one machine, and 400W on another. Whichever one everyone has the most experience with wins here. 2. There are a bunch of different designs across about three different resistance modes available A. air B. water and C. hydraulic piston. Air is generally regarded as the bes…

Thanks for the context. We have a few Olympic rowers as part of "Pros vs Joes" on our rower. So far, the rower is still working :)

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#139

I'm really glad to see this product. I'm also more tech than fitness, but I try to get in a quick row or treadmill run every day. In my case, I purchased a Concept 2 a couple years ago, not because I'm a rowing enthusiast but because "best rowing machine" seemed to point to it and it cost less than my treadmill =P I found a mount online for the Concept 2 that can attach my iPad and the last few weeks I've been using…

Thanks! I agree that a C2 + Ipad setup might be all that's needed for a lot of people to stay motivated. For me, I needed more.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#140
post #99

Great idea! I used to be a competitive rower. When I was working at a gym during my studies I was actually talking with the managers of running some rowing classes (similar to spinning). I think the main challenge with rowing machines (and the reason why we didn't do rowing classes), is that for beginners there is essentially only hard or off, i.e. it is difficult to adjust to different exhaustion levels. That leads…

The other challenge I is related to hardware. The reason why everyone is talking about the C2s is that pretty much every other machine is crap. The forces pulling on these machines are substantive and concept managed to make a machine that held up over time, unlike the others. So I hope you guys made those things sturdy enough. Robustness isn't the only reason C2s are considered the best. Unlike all the cheap brands,…

Certainly more accurate than most other ergs (that's how we rowers call them). However, it's not perfect. Nothing is ever perfect when it comes to measuring real world biomechanics. I did competitive rowing in my youth + I've spent a couple years building rowing technology, sensors + telemetry, so I can maybe offer a few interesting insights about their issues. Don't get me wrong, C2 ergs are great craftsmanship, built like tanks and I've spent a few hundreds hours on these machines (blaming the weather gods and the winter season).

1) The PM2 units (the old LCD ones, stock on Model C ergs) were particularly bad, suffering from some well known "issues". The sensors in them had not a high enough sample rate + high hysteresis in the sensors. That means that "pulling hard" at the catch (for non-on-the-water rowers: the beginning of a stroke cycle, when your hands are closest to the flywheel) and then backing off the handle force rewards you with higher measured power than actual.

2) This became a lot better with the PM4 generation (stock on Model D and up). However they still have another issue. The force exerted by the suspension cord that pulls the chain back into the housing is not subtracted from the measurement. The sensor only measures effective force/rpm on the flywheel. This is the reason why virtual regattas (serious competitions anyway) are always staged on brand new ergs where the suspension cords have not different levels of fatigue. The ergs are typically sold off after the events (which is of course a marketing/logistics trick just as well).

"Proper" testing on a C2 thus involves measuring handle force directly. This can be done by linking a strain gauge between handle and chain.

3) Speaking of racing events, it's pretty interesting how C2 has enabled virtual/digital racing long before "digitalising" things was a big trend. The interface that the PM4s use for regattas is based on RS485 over RJ45 (you can also use USB but that's not the recommended way for large scale > 16 seats races). The PM3 were wired using telephone/RJ11 and I think it was RS232 IIRC.

4) The single most important "calibration" on a Concept rower is the Drag Factor (the displays can show it in an advanced menu). The drag factor is essentially how fast the flywheel slows down, i.e. how much drag it has. Different ergs have different amounts of dust in them and wear on the bearings, which is why the "flap setting" really shouldn't be used as an absolute/comparable measure between machines.

Racing with a higher/lower drag factor is purely a matter of preference of the athlete and where their personal optimum for performing mechanical work lies. You can think of it like a gearing to increase resistance. In "on the water" rowing we can change gearing using inner/outer handle length of the oar on the gate to achieve a similar effect. This is very important since speed vs. the water varies a lot between boat classes from about ~4m/s in a single (1x) to ~6m/s in a 8+/4x. Our testing protocols recommended 125-140 (female-male).

5) While everyone obsesses over watts, that's not the whole picture. To move a boat (virtual or real) you need work, not power. Since ergs don't float, their mechanics are a lot simpler than a real rowing boat. Work on an erg is handle force x distance, i.e. you integrate the force-distance curve of the handle. That means long strokes are better - the most common beginner mistake is to waste stroke length.

6) Related to 1) and 5) there's a special "erg technique" of pulling the chord up the chest as you move angle your back backwards at the end. This gains you extra stroke length and "stealing" a bit more mechanical work due to sensor hysteresis. This works on a PM4 and up too. You can only get away with this on an erg. On the water pulling off this sort of trick at race speeds will most likely eject you from the boat. It may look like a funny catapult but ejecting from the boat can 100% kill you if your head hits a rigger or blade. See [0] for a close encounter.

7a) "Ergs don't float" is a saying for another important reason. They fail to simulate the impulse exchange between rower and boat mass. This is very important for real world rowing performance because minimizing boat shell velocity fluctuations means less mechanical work required to travel the same distance [1]. This is also the reason why it's preferable to have a "front-loaded" force curve profile. Coincidentally the sensor hysteresis of the concept ergs rewards that... maybe it's engineered intentionally? :-)

7b) Anyways, Avoiding vertical shell movement is of similar importance as wetted surface (and thus drag) increases massively if you push the boat down into the water. Athletes thus have a to maintain very delicate balance between stretcher and handle forces not to offset the systems center of mass during the stroke cycle. None of that matters on an erg.

7c) And most important: Ergs don't simulate the interaction of impulse exchanges between a whole crew of rowers that can never be perfectly in sync. Concept sells "Sliders" for the C2 ergs that you can use for a single erg but also to link together multiple ergs to a crew. If you haven't tried this, I can highly recommend this as it makes it much more realistic and also a lot more challenging. From my coaching experience I can also recommend it especially to beginners. It may sound counterintuitive, but it's much less forgiving to errors in your motion sequence/force application and will thus make you a better (and more healthier!) rower much quicker.

8) Rowers are an incredible bunch of creative and resourceful people. There's so many tinkerers in the community... a shout to a couple of things in the erg space:

- Waterrower hit big thanks to House of Cards. This plus cross-fit certainly made rowing much more popular as a sport. Waterrowers are not used in serious capacity in competitive training though as far as I'm aware.

- Augletics are a bunch of former competitive rowers building an erg using a electromagnetic brake (that can support more realistic force profiles/dynamics). And you don't get that "wooooosh" sound ringing in your ears that won't go away for hours after a 90min C2 erg session...

- Biorower simulates proper sculling technique, boat rotation and uses mechanical gears instead of a flywheel

Anyhow - great to see more innovation like Aviron in the space even if it's "just" targeted at recreational/fitness use case. It's a fabulous sport and I applaud you for making it more accessible. Hope it gets people to dip their toes so they may one day decide to get their feet wet and hit their local rowing club.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH2k_026KrY [1] https://www.rowinginmotion.com/drag-efficiency-rowing/

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