A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#131

Post by secondcoming » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 1:08 PM UTC

psaintlaurent wrote: post #19

howlgarnish wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean this in the kindest possible way: have you consulted a psychiatrist? Feeling like you are being persecuted by shadowy, all-powerful enemies is a common symptom of schizophrenia.

No psychiatrist necessary (PROOF): https://twitter.com/psaintlaurent0/status/132951417338719028... https://twitter.com/psaintlaurent0/status/134244904875058380... https://twitter.com/psaintlaurent0/status/132883496079975628... https://twitter.com/psaintlaurent0/status/131211998307427942... https://twitter.com/psaintlaurent0/status/125889480453833932...

Have your house checked for carbon monoxide leaks.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#132

Post by kepler1 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 1:09 PM UTC

Unions are about locking in a minimum standard of work on something that doesn't change, stifling innovation, covering for underperforming colleagues, rewarding people based on how long they've been around, making things cost more than they should be, and worse.

Why would I ever want to support such a system, in an industry that has brought innovative technology and material improvement in living standards and knowledge to billions of people?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#133

Post by CydeWeys » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 1:09 PM UTC

karl11 wrote: post #110

avianlyric wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don't want to leave a cushy job for one where they would have to work harder for their money, so instead, they are trying other means to have their cake and eat it too. You're saying this like it's a bad thing. Why shouldn't employees expect, and get, better working conditions? > engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better" How is individuals leaving "coll…

Employees can ask for better, but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. There are very few perils of leaving Google - a top tier company in an industry t…

> It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead.

This phrasing is disingenuous. If you don't like what's going on you can stay and fight rather than giving up and leaving. The people unionizing are of the "stay and fight" variety. Where does this false dichotomy come from that your only options are to stay and shut up or leave and be vocal?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#134

Post by ATsch » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 1:09 PM UTC

chasd00 wrote: post #99

gcr wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AWU includes temps, vendors, and contractors (TVCs), who are not at all paid the way full-time employees are. I'm sure there's a lot of gains to make to ensure everyone has equitable pay. That said, a lot of work that AWU is doing focuses on values organizing and employee ethics. Structures like this union help balance the power between workers and executives at Alphabet.

that's ominous, so if you don't tow the union line on the social issue of the day then they can prevent you from being a member which will be required for employment?

Unlike corporations like Google, who would never fire (sorry, "quit voluntarily") someone for criticizing the stance of the company on social issues.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#135

Post by rzodkiew » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 1:09 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #18

mountainb wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assumption that they would have to be hallucinating to be recounting a standard tale of union intimidation is very funny. That's what a union is for: thugging on people. You have to have soft hands to believe anything else.

Isn't that tale the reverse of that - i.e. a tale of intimidating union members? I find it hard to believe stuff like this would fly in a major city of a western country in 21st century, even in the United States. Though I can't honestly discount it completely either...

After watching "Union Time"[1], I'm not finding it that hard to believe. It was really shocking to see shit like that fly in a civilised society.

[1]: https://www.uniontimefilm.org

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#136

Post by eropple » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 1:10 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #95

avianlyric wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don't want to leave a cushy job for one where they would have to work harder for their money, so instead, they are trying other means to have their cake and eat it too. You're saying this like it's a bad thing. Why shouldn't employees expect, and get, better working conditions? > engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better" How is individuals leaving "coll…

Aren't most employees also shareholders, in the tech industry? Don't we have representation through that mechanism and why isn't it enough?

Google gives out Class C stock options to (most) employees, so even when they vest they can't vote. They're certainly not alone in that. So, no, probably not?

Even were they, the voting capability of such a share is ineffectually small; this is the "why you can just not spend money at MegaMart if you care so much" [because singular action doesn't work but we can make it sound just viable enough that you go away] argument tilted a little.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#137

Post by kenhwang » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 1:10 PM UTC

jcims wrote: post #119

kenhwang wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The unions (edit: film industry) require a certain amount of work experience to join and some have different levels of membership depending on how much work you do after joining. Because everyone prefers union workers, it creates a situation where the non-union worker has to get noticed somehow (nepotism or exceptional work) to convince someone to take a risk and hire them to earn enough work to gain union membership…

>Because everyone prefers union workers Everyone? What union are you talking about?

Everyone in the US film industry for these unions: https://castifi.com/2020/03/24/list-of-film-industry-unions/

There's way more union members than there is work. So if the pay's the same for union or non-union (not much either way), why wouldn't you go with union labor?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#138

Post by avianlyric » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 1:10 PM UTC

karl11 wrote: post #110

avianlyric wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don't want to leave a cushy job for one where they would have to work harder for their money, so instead, they are trying other means to have their cake and eat it too. You're saying this like it's a bad thing. Why shouldn't employees expect, and get, better working conditions? > engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better" How is individuals leaving "coll…

Employees can ask for better, but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. There are very few perils of leaving Google - a top tier company in an industry t…

> I'm not sure what more you are entitled to.

You're entitled to as much as you can negotiate. Isn't this a founding principle of capitalism?

If collective bargaining allows employees to negotiate more, then shouldn't they negotiate more?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#139

Post by runawaybottle » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 1:10 PM UTC

avianlyric wrote: post #84

karl11 wrote: post #60

Don't think we've ever seen Hollywood in the modern era without unions, so not sure how you can claim it's "undeniable" the industry is better off. We basically have no clue if it's better off or not. Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Goo…

> People don't want to leave a cushy job for one where they would have to work harder for their money, so instead, they are trying other means to have their cake and eat it too. You're saying this like it's a bad thing. Why shouldn't employees expect, and get, better working conditions? > engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better" How is individuals leaving "coll…

Most union power comes from solidarity. If the Google people feel they don’t need unions, then all other lower unions are weaker. The power comes from the industry wide union. People at small startups can stand up for something because even the Google people stand up for it. Otherwise we’re divided and carry out the dog eat dog world.

Edit:

To all the skeptics, look, out of all the thousands of tech companies, how but one of you just try it. Can we just try it? Like, all of you join it, and just try it out, so we can actually have one real world example to discuss in this fantasy ‘to union or not to union’ debate.

I’d like to at least see one attempt, one example, that way we can all point to and say ‘oh shit, google sucks now’, or ‘oh wait, it’s still a multi billion dollar company and the world didn’t end, here are the pros and cons and the overall conclusion’.

We can’t even do that because the damn thing doesn’t even really exist for any of us. This actually working out means it spreads industry wide, the implications are bigger. So could we try it? Just try, nothing more. Please? Pretty please?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#140

Post by giantg2 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 1:10 PM UTC

John23832 wrote: post #123

zthrowaway wrote: post #91

Some of the most highly paid, privileged and marketable individuals in our industry, easily in the top 5% of income in the economy... what’s the point of this? Google employees are a far cry from the romanticized proletariat fighting against the bourgeoisie.

If you read the article, you would see content about contract workers.

I saw that it was mostly that the contract workers don't get the same benefits. But how is this different than other places? In some cases, benefits need to restricted or you risk them becoming shadow employees (ie hands are tied by law).