Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#131

Post by mattkrause » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 3:04 PM UTC

yodsanklai wrote: post #92

gspr wrote: post #74

I hope you'll forgive me ranting, but it's almost exactly a year ago since I left academia (was a postdoc), and I'm feeling very down about it and need to let out some thoughts. First the positives: academia has some amazing qualities. If you "make it" (or, alternatively, until you "fail" and drop out) you'll spend most of your time working on problems that you are truly passionate about. The kind of problems that yo…

> If you "make it" (or, alternatively, until you "fail" and drop out) you'll spend most of your time working on problems that you are truly passionate about. I wonder to what extent this is correct. I heard professors saying they can do actual research only in their free time. Rest of the time is managing, administration, teaching, attending various committee and so on...

Early postdoc is probably the sweet spot for (individually) working on what you love.

As you become more senior, responsibilities start to accrete around you. You can make more progress on something, but you start to do so by supervising others and writing grants to make it happen, rather than just doing the work yourself. This can be satisfying, but can also devolve into endless paperwork.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#132

Post by angrais » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 3:06 PM UTC

angrais wrote: post #96

yodsanklai wrote: post #94

> Long hours and a lack of job security, combined with workplace bullying and discrimination, are forcing many to consider leaving science I've never encountered any form of bullying or discrimination in my 15 years academic career (in three different countries). What I witnessed a few times though where post-docs that just got disinterested in their work and unproductive for months. It's not uncommon for post-docs s…

>> I've never encountered any form of bullying or discrimination in my 15 years academic career (in three different countries). Great to hear that you've not encountered bullying in the academy, but it absolutely does exist and is unfortunately thriving. Often when it occurs, the university will side with the academic rather than postdoc or PhD students, which puts them in an extremely difficult situation since their…

An appendum: I acknowledge "thriving" is not the ideal word to use. However, bullying within academia exists and is increasingly more common than people release. Often because it's something that goes unsaid and unreported, in part out of fear of repercussions for the reporter rather than the bully because the academy protects the latter.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#133

Post by bonoboTP » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 3:07 PM UTC

yodsanklai wrote: post #100

foldr wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Academia is hard because it's extremely competitive, The issue isn't the level of competitiveness but the cost of losing. Now that I'm outside academia, there's plenty of competition. For example, getting a good job at Google is just as competitive as getting a tenure-track position. The difference is that I can easily get a respectable job that pays the bills if I don't make the cut for Google. A nice side effect o…

> The issue isn't the level of competitiveness but the cost of losing. I agree but only to some extent. First, there are many research institutions in the world. The same way there is more than one software company. They are not all equally selective and prestigious. There are also a lot of companies doing R&D. It may not be academic research, but it can also be pretty cool. In that sense, not getting an academic pos…

Yep, you can probably get a position at some backwater university that will pay (in the rich Western World) still enough to live a "normal" life. But of course everyone thinks they deserve a place at the top of the totem pole and anything less prestigious is a catastrophe. It's understandable. Many were always the top or one of the top kids in class or in school, won various local competitions but then it comes to competing against everyone across the globe and suddenly the story changes and it's no longer automatic and a given that you are at the top. It's a cold shower to many.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#134

Post by ProjectArcturis » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 3:09 PM UTC

bransonf wrote: post #6

Serious question: Why don’t they leave? I’m not saying that they should, or that conditions shouldn’t improve, but if academia is that stressful to you, why stick with it? The only potential outcomes sticking with it are that you will fail later on, or you will fill a role with an increasing amount of stressors.

It took me years of trying before I could find a decent job to jump ship to. Employers are very skeptical of someone still in academia who has never had a "real" job before. Even if you've been doing crazy advanced research, the HR bots don't recognize that when scanning your resume.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#135

Post by bart_spoon » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 3:13 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #53

supernova87a wrote: post #31

I mean, isn't it clear, ever since the bulk creation / funding of so many colleges (and faculty positions) pre + post WW2, the US faculty job market has been on a decline ever since -- (that is, from the average postdoc's point of view of success % when seeking a faculty position). It is structurally not a growing, dynamic market where you're going to have an easy time. I would call it stagnant, or in the worst case,…

It's suddenly dawned on me in the past month or so that the era of growth for many American ways of life is at an end. Not just academia. The post-war, post-energy boom should have been obvious. Millennials have been complaining about lack of job growth, housing, and affordable education. Their parents had lower-hanging fruit to pluck. (I'm assuming this isn't just some myth I've been told about the 60's - 90's.) The…

I’m reading Capital in the 21st Century, and Piketty notes that the growth rates that characterized the decades following the world wars were aberrations, not the norm. Growth has largely been very, very slow across most of human history. It’s also worth noting that the intense post-war growth followed by a return to earth has occurred in most countries around the world, regardless of domestic policies, with some, like China, being accelerated in a “catch up phase”. Much of the third world has yet to experience this catch up phase, but are likely to in the next 50 years.

It seems entirely possible that there is no way to replicate what was a relatively short period of hyper-growth that has defined most of our lifetimes, and instead we need to base our policies and planning around the idea that what we’ve considered to be stagnant growth rates are actually the norm.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#136

Post by refactor_master » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 3:17 PM UTC

phist_mcgee wrote: post #87

flobosg wrote: post #4

I’m currently writing my dissertation and still debating whether to stay in academia or not. I mean, even if I had not been academically unsuccessful during grad school I will get a piece of paper saying "You have a PhD" in the end. If you fail during your postdoc you are left with basically nothing. That’s a huge burden.

I have a PhD. The acquisition of that certification was perhaps the most meaningless thing of my life. Behind my Bachelor's by far. No one was really proud of me, and I only finished it because I have a problem with not finishing things. Finish it if you have it in you, cut it loose if you do not. Dr. means nothing, and no one in the real world will care either way.

Quite the opposite for me. It gave me the needed time and open-ended-ness to play around with methods and tackle problems in a way that best suited and interested me.

The things I learned during my PhD makes my bachelor’s and master’s subjects seem almost worthless.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#137

Post by mattkrause » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 3:24 PM UTC

LockAndLol wrote: post #93

The people expanding our scientific understanding of the world being undervalued by society and institutions is the epitome of our current state. We're burning out our engines and slowing down innovation... for what? Can any academics or postdocs express what they believe should change to improve their situations?

More staff scientist positions.

Academia, especially in the US and Canada, only has one viable long-term job: a faculty position. Everything else is ostensibly “training” for that job and there’s increasing pressure to make that transition as quickly as possible, in part because the low pay and stability of the other positions.

This is stupid. Since professors produce trainees, the competition gets exponentially worse. At the same time, using mostly new workers that are constantly churning over makes it hard to do good research. This is exacerbated by the emphasis on first/last author publications, which disincentivizes division of labor and teamwork. Furthermore, studies have found that outcome for the trainees are better when a mix of senior people are around.

Despite this, the NIH funds virtually no staff scientists: only one institute (NCI) has a staff scientist mechanism and it’s very small (~50?) compared to the rest of the program. Give people longer contracts (5 years) renewable bases on the output of the teams they enable, and everyone would win.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#138

Post by marmaduke » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 3:37 PM UTC

sweezyjeezy wrote: post #89

marmaduke wrote: post #81

I’m a staff scientist and watch post docs and students get ground up into grant fodder in a regular basis. Sure there are discoveries but at what cost to our mental health? I think there are two politically convenient roles to academia: (1) allow a country to posture about money is has to spend, case in point are EU flagships which everyone agrees is a big waste but it puts EU on the map, research wise. (2) it keeps…

I don't buy (2) at all. a) I don't think the overlap between postdocs (especially STEM) and those that would work in politics is all that high. I think the vast majority would be working in tech/industry. b) if this were true we might expect republicans to support government funding for academia over democrats, and the opposite is true.

I think my reason (1) explains your (b).

As for (a), I agree that a lot would not be in politics but, if you have seen it first hand, academia sucks the life and minds of out of early stage researchers in a way that other jobs do not. The salary means they are comfortable enough not to complain and no time for it anyway.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#139

Post by mattkrause » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 3:38 PM UTC

supernova87a wrote: post #31

I mean, isn't it clear, ever since the bulk creation / funding of so many colleges (and faculty positions) pre + post WW2, the US faculty job market has been on a decline ever since -- (that is, from the average postdoc's point of view of success % when seeking a faculty position). It is structurally not a growing, dynamic market where you're going to have an easy time. I would call it stagnant, or in the worst case,…

> there's just no spot for the people below even to compete

This is often stated like a fact of life, but it’s really just a decision that we’ve collectively made.

The NIH and NSF will happily give you $75,000 to train three grad students, but not to hire one experienced staff scientist, even though there may be few positions for the students at the end and the staff scientist may be more efficient.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#140

Post by marmaduke » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 3:39 PM UTC

jcfrei wrote: post #123

marmaduke wrote: post #81

I’m a staff scientist and watch post docs and students get ground up into grant fodder in a regular basis. Sure there are discoveries but at what cost to our mental health? I think there are two politically convenient roles to academia: (1) allow a country to posture about money is has to spend, case in point are EU flagships which everyone agrees is a big waste but it puts EU on the map, research wise. (2) it keeps…

This seems to be a common misconception that the slow progress in politics (whatever that means depends on your own political compass) is purely due to the lackluster presentation and evidence finding for policy changes. If the past years have shown anything it's that preconceived notions and ideologies are very hard to change even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

I had in mind things like think tanks, startups and so on