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More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

theguardian.com

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Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#131

Post by dschuler »

tehwebguy wrote: post #35
dx87 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like, you support the decision, but your immediate boss doesn't, so they start looking for reasons to get rid of you that don't have any official connection to your stance. I remember a while back seeing leaked documents from Google where some managers shared an unofficial blacklist of employees to never promote and try to get rid of because of their political views.

Every non-union employee in every state other than Montana has this potential problem. The difference is in smaller companies the unspoken rules are often spoken out loud and the employees don’t make Google money.

How does Montana deal with that problem differently?

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#132

Post by miked85 »

jlokier wrote: post #119
miked85 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is completely untrue, at least with 'at will' employments. Once you resign, you quit. Working for any additional length of time after that often occurs if it is in both parties best interests. If it isn't though, the relationship is usually terminated immediately after resignation.

> This is completely untrue, at least with 'at will' employments. The sentence you are replying to literally excludes 'at will' countries from the scope of their point... >> In most countries (which are not "at will"), ...

Sorry, I was replying to the first sentence.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#133

Post by _y5hn »

tertius wrote: post #107
jollofricepeas wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. I think its important to leave a link to the paper here for HN. Please read it or at least its intro & conclusion. https://gofile.io/d/WfcxoF After reading, it seems very much in line with her role as an ethicist. She merely states that there are various risks associated with processing large datasets. Its a bit sad that they attempted to censure such an innocuous paper that without malice states “there a…

> She merely states that there are various risks associated with processing large datasets. What's the strongest argument against her "merely" doing this?

We haven't heard any arguments, only that management can do as they please when they don't like results of AI Ethics Research. We'll likely not get anything substantial, ever, either.

As I've stated in other post, this is very, very troublesome for AI and Google.

OTOH, Google has much emphasis on ethics in AI/ML otherwise. But the whole company, especially management, need to put actions in alignment with their words on this matter.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#135

Post by paperdropper »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #115
jlokier wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the employee says "I'm giving you 1 month formal notice of resignation", and the company responds with "effective immediately you are terminated without pay or benefits", at that point it's not a resignation any more, it's a termination. In most countries (which are not "at will"), I believe if the employee had not breached their contract they could claim wrongful termination in this scenario and likely be awarded…

I don't get why people keep mentioning how things are in other countries. We all know the US is bad for employee rights, why bring up how it is in other countries?

I think it's good to remind people how terrible the US is when it comes to worker rights. Many people don't realize just how bad they've got it over there.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#136

Post by metabagel »

tertius wrote: post #100
claudeganon wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not universally though. In countries with stronger labor protections and unions, you can’t just fire people for philosophical disagreements (not without those disputes being mediated anyway). I don’t understand how we arrived at some conception of workplaces as little dictatorships, where bosses can treat people however they want and that’s somehow good or legitimate.

A boss controls the work that you, via a contract, agreed to do. If you want out of the contract the boss cannot make you do the work. You have agency, they cannot threaten you with violence as a dictator could.

Managers are supposed to exercise power on behalf of the company. In this case, it’s unclear whether the manager was exercising power in the best interests of the company or of himself.

In my opinion, might doesn’t make right. Managers aren’t de facto right purely by virtue of being a manager.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#137

Post by true_religion »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #73
claudeganon wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they could just actually unionize instead of this reactive outrage. It’s unlikely Gebru would have been fired under these circumstances if she had a union contract.

As a manager, Gebru wouldn't have been allowed into a union.

Is she really a manager? In factories the foreman was considered part of the Union rank and file. PMs and other developer leadership could be integrated into a union.

Basically if you can be promoted up into a position it can be a union job. If you need a business degree to do it though then it’s non union.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#138

Post by pmoriarty »

adnzzzzZ wrote: post #30
freshhawk wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people have a stance they chose, that this is some Daily Mail "political correctness gone mad" thing, because SJW cultural domination controls all our lives. They're working through some cognitive dissonance.

It does though. For instance, were any articles framed as [More than X Google workers condemn firing of James Damore], despite that actually being the case? The media, universities and other elite institutions always support the "SJW cultural domination" stance on all these issues and the discussion is always framed from that perspective. You'll find similar framings such as [More than X GitHub workers condemn GitHub…

"You'll never find [More than X GitHub workers condemn removal of meritocracy rug], despite that also being the case"

How would you know it's the case unless, say, 1200 GitHub workers sign a letter of protest as they did in the case of Google?

Sure, we could imagine that 1200 GitHub employees objected, but that's not the same thing, is it?

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#139

Post by jlokier »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #115
jlokier wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the employee says "I'm giving you 1 month formal notice of resignation", and the company responds with "effective immediately you are terminated without pay or benefits", at that point it's not a resignation any more, it's a termination. In most countries (which are not "at will"), I believe if the employee had not breached their contract they could claim wrongful termination in this scenario and likely be awarded…

I don't get why people keep mentioning how things are in other countries. We all know the US is bad for employee rights, why bring up how it is in other countries?

Because people are debating whether it is a resignation (where the employee is in control of events), or a termination ("firing", where the company is in control of events).

Although US has 'at will' in most states, in many respects the way employment issues are judged in the US is similar to elsewhere. So the perspective elsewhere on what counts as termination seems relevant.

You're free to disagree, but that's why it's brought into the conversation.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#140

Post by romanoderoma »

jlokier wrote: post #93
miked85 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She offered to resign on a particular schedule It is not out of the ordinary at all for companies to walk people out on the day of resignation. The company is not required or even expected to abide by whatever schedule is presented to them.

If the employee says "I'm giving you 1 month formal notice of resignation", and the company responds with "effective immediately you are terminated without pay or benefits", at that point it's not a resignation any more, it's a termination. In most countries (which are not "at will"), I believe if the employee had not breached their contract they could claim wrongful termination in this scenario and likely be awarded…

> they could claim wrongful termination in this scenario and likely be awarded the pay they would have received for the missing notice period.

Correct.

That's what happens in Italy for example and I believe in large parts of Europe (I know for sure France, Germany, Sweden and Spain)

The missing pay is granted anyway, but with a wrongful termination the employer will most likely obtain a fair compensation.

A couple decades ago I was awarded a year of salary + the 3 months of notice we agreed upon when I was hired, for a wrongful termination after an acquisition.

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